This transcript was generated automatically, and has not been manually verified. It may contain errors and omissions. In particular, speaker labels, proper nouns, and attributions may be incorrect. Treat it as a helpful guide rather than a verbatim record — for the real thing, give the episode a listen.

---

---

MARK STOCKLEY. So, so just so I've got this right, what you're saying is in order that nothing bad appears on Twitter, Twitter has suspended the account of the people who stop bad things from appearing on Twitter?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Okay, right.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, this sounds so smart. I just don't think we're smart enough to understand what's really happening here, guys.

---

UNKNOWN. Smashing Security. Smashing Security, Episode 296: Twitter Turmoil, AI Animal Chatters, and Metaverse at Work with Carole Theriault and Graham Cluley. Hello, hello, and welcome to Smashing Security, Episode 296. My name's Graham Cluley.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And I'm Carole Theriault.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. And this week, Carole, we are joined by a special guest returning to the show. It's Mark Stockley. Hello, Mark.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Hi, I'm back.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yay.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Marvelous.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. We're gonna have a quick and crazy show. Mark, anything to report since the last time you've been on?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. I've appeared on Twitter wearing a hoodie.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, wicked! Before we kick off, let's thank this week's sponsors, Bitwarden, Akamai, and Kolide. It's their support that helps us give you this show for free. Coming up on today's show, Graham, what do you got?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I'm gonna be talking about how Twitter's gone down the shitter, and maybe the rest of the world as well.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. What about you, Mark?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Well, you might wanna sit down for this. I have found I think a useful application for AI.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Ooh.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Although, although I will say this, like all good things, there's a reasonable chance it'll kill us.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Great. And I will be circling the rim of the virtual world called the metaverse. All this and much more coming up on this episode of Smashing Security.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. I'm looking forward to this rim circling.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I'm not. Now, chums, chums. Elon Musk. He's been a bit busy lately, hasn't he?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Who's he? Sorry.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Just this chap with a couple of rockets and an electric car.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Graham, I've actually refused to read anything about this in the last week. So this is all new to me. So fantastic.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, no, that's good, Carole. That's good. Put your head in the sand. Why not? Why not just be completely ignorant as the world gets flushed down the lavatory?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I know that you have a bromance with Elon and that you would talk about it this week.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. No, no, no, no, no, no. He has, of course, bought Twitter.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Under duress.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, was it or not? It's hard to tell. He certainly finds it hard to keep quiet about it. He actually normally tries not to draw attention to himself, does he? But there's been a number of incidents since he bought Twitter for a— I was about to say a gastronomical amount of money, but that would be—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. It probably is. It probably is.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Depends on how much he has for lunch. An astronomical amount of money. Reportedly fired several senior staff. Did you see he's also been forcing his developers to print out their code? Some of them have even been—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. What, literally? Like, really? Like, literally?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Shift-P?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Print out pages and pages of their code, which they've been doing because they've said, bring it round to Elon and his team of coders because they want to go through your code with you and see what you've been working on. Now, there's nothing a programmer likes more. Having someone else look at the code and go, "Eh, no, I think you could have done that a little bit more optimally, couldn't you?" Well, whoa, whoa, whoa.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. What if there's like some security flaws in it though? You know, wouldn't you want those highlighted so that you—

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Yeah, famously printing out code and having people read it is an excellent way of finding security flaws.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. How many letter pages would it be to print out the code for all of Twitter?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I don't think it's all of Twitter. I think it's the code they've submitted in the last 30 days or so. So first of all, he wants to see, have you actually been doing any work? And him determining the quality of your work. Now, having told people to print it out, they then sent around an edict telling people, shred that, don't print it out, shred it, shred it.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Because obviously what's gonna happen if you print out your code, it's gonna get left lying around. I'll tell you what's gonna happen.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Because this story makes absolutely no sense at all from the point of view of reviewing code, okay? I've written code, I've reviewed code. Even if Elon thinks it's a good idea, the people he's brought will be sat there going, "What?" He's going to smoke it. That's all this is. He just wants to smoke Twitter. He's gonna do a meme. He's just gonna be sat there smoking a bifter out of people's code rolled up. I guarantee it.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. The greatest fuck you to developers ever.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. They just throw it into the rest of the dumpster fire that is Twitter at the moment, I suspect. It's just fuel, isn't it?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. That sand that Carole's got her head in is looking very attractive.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I can dig you a hole. There's some rocks.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Now it's also alleged he's going to fire maybe 75%, maybe 25%, maybe 50%, who knows, of the Twitter staff. Just depends on how he feels at the time.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Yeah.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. And I also read a story saying that, you know, this whole verified tick thing and how they're going to monetise Twitter. So some of us have ticks to say that we've been verified.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Have you got a tick?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I have a tick. He was very proud of getting a tick.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. A facial tick.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. But no knighthood.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. No, nothing yet.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Still waiting on the NIAID.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So apparently, according to reports, Elon has, he's got a team working on this and said, make this happen. I want to be able to say to people, you have to pay $20 per month to have a tick to verify your account. I want it to be live within a week and a half. And if you don't do it on time, you're all fired. So that's what he's told his engineers apparently is to do this.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. That is a recipe for stable and secure code if ever I heard one. So I'll tell you what will happen in that situation. They will nail that deadline. There is no way on earth that product will not get shipped. They will spend the next 6 months fixing all the problems in the product that they shipped, but they will ship it on time. Not a doubt in my mind.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So Elon has been busy. A number of other things have been going on in his account as well. The news media, of course, they're fascinated with the purchase of Twitter by Elon Musk. I don't know if you saw that CNBC interview view with two data engineers as they came out of the— Mark, you saw that, did you? Maybe you can describe that to Carole for us.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I don't think he's capable.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. A couple of guys with some brown cardboard boxes claiming to be data engineers working at Twitter had been let go. And anyway, the upshot was they weren't engineers. They were just trolling people. What? With amusing names, yes.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Who was it? It was— Raoul Ligma.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, Ligma Johnson.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. And then the other one was called something Johnson.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes, that's it.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. And nobody got the joke, and then Elon had to explain it the following morning.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. That's right.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. It was like Bart Simpson phoning the bar.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I still don't even get it, so okay, whatever.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Do you ever watch The Simpsons?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes, but you know—

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. A man to hug and kiss. Can I find a man to hug and kiss?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Mike Ratch. Has anyone seen Mike Ratch?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So you can probably understand at the moment that there might be some slightly disgruntled people at Twitter who work there. No. Maybe a little bit concerned about the new boss, may not think he's such a great guy. And there is a concern apparently that some disgruntled staff might go slightly rogue. Rogue? Yes, rogue.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. What does that mean? Define.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, they might be sat at their desks with powers on Twitter. They might have certain rights. And they could cause problems if they think Elon is— if they wanted to sabotage it, if they imagine they're going to lose their jobs within the next couple of days, they might decide, well, I'm just going to— Do you remember when back in 2017, there was a Twitter employee who suspended Donald Trump's account? Yes. I think he suspended it for a grand total of 11 minutes.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, I was thinking it was about 10 minutes.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. It was the most beautiful, Beautiful silence on Twitter.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. It was one—

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. oh, it was a wonderful thing. Anyway, so that kind of— that was done by someone at Twitter who was actually leaving that day. And they thought, well, as I'm going, why don't I do the world a favor? And so they deleted his account for 12 minutes. Now, it's possible if someone doesn't like Elon Musk, they might go rogue on Twitter now and may do something mischievous. And this is why Twitter says at the moment It has locked down a number of its staff from doing things on Twitter. Just little things on Twitter, like maybe handling all the offensive posts and hate speech. So that they can't suspend accounts and deal—

---

MARK STOCKLEY. So just so I've got this right.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. What you're saying is, in order that nothing bad appears on Twitter, Twitter has suspended the account of the people who stop bad things from appearing on Twitter.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yep.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Yes.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Okay, right. Yeah.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. This sounds so smart. I just don't think we're smart enough to understand what's really happening here, guys.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. It's 4D chess.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes, exactly.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. And there is a concern about this lack of moderation of the misinformation happening on Twitter because there are these elections coming up.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. What?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Very soon in America.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. It's an election.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. There's some important elections. Exactly. There's some midterms happening. And so there is a worry that this might— because there are some very high-profile people with verified accounts on Twitter who have posted misinformation. For instance, there is an account called @elonmusk, and this chap Elon Musk posted a link to a conspiracy theory the other day, claiming that— I don't know if you heard— Paul Pelosi, the husband of Nancy Pelosi, his home got— someone broke into his home with a hammer, saying, "Where's Nancy? Where's Nancy?" And they attacked Paul Pelosi with this hammer. He's now in hospital getting some cranial surgery or something.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Elon Musk, the owner of Twitter, posted a link to a story claiming that it was a domestic fracas. He claimed that this in fact was a gay prostitute who was having a relationship with Paul Pelosi.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh my gosh.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Right. Now, that's the kind of conspiracy nutty theory that normally Twitter would shut down and prevent from being amplified.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. The future is rosy.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. It was posted by the owner of Twitter, and all these Twitter safety and integrity people have been told—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. They're locked out. They can't do shit.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. You're locked out. And so—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. And people now are retweeting the head of safety and integrity, Yole Roth, at Twitter, because back in May, he said, whenever there's harmful misleading claims—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Let me know.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. We're going to post up a warning message. We're going to hide them properly. And people are saying, Well, are you going to do this to Elon Musk? And of course, Yul Roth doesn't want to lose his job. Meanwhile, this conspiracy theory and much more stuff— apparently there's been this huge surge in offensive slurs, derogatory terms, really nasty stuff happening on Twitter since Elon took over because people are testing the system. So there's been this, in Twitter's own words, there's been this ton of tweets which have come out. Posting all of these messages, 50,000 tweets they said, were just using one particular word, which we don't like, on Twitter, which has happened since. So, everything's great.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Wow.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Everything's gone really, really well.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. That tweet has now been taken down.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes, Elon has deleted the tweet, yes.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. But the question is, was it him? I imagine it was like a scene from The Thick of It inside Twitter. Trying to work out what is the moderation procedure for— moderating the guy that pays their monthly checks.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, what Elon Musk actually did was there was a news report from New York Times saying that Elon Musk had tweeted a link to this conspiracy website. Elon Musk took a screenshot of that New York Times story and said, this is not true. I haven't linked to the New York Times.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, like, hahaha.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Yes, yes.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I know. It's like we have an 8-year-old.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, I know. I work with one every week on a podcast. I'm not talking about Maria. I understand. So, you know, you do have an option, Graham, and all of you other people out there have an option. Get off Twitter. Don't get off on Twitter, but get off it.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I'm also on Mastodon, unfortunately named Twitter-like site, which is sort of It's somewhere where there aren't ads and it's all sort of lovely.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Thank God. I don't know what we could do without a daily message from you online.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, it's been bombarded with new messages because some people are suddenly leaving Twitter.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Good.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Or at least creating accounts elsewhere. And I think Twitter needs to be careful because do you remember Digg?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Mm-hmm.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Do you remember when Digg redesigned itself like 10, 12 years ago? And in the space of about a couple of weeks, Everyone left Digg and went to Reddit. And Digg, which had been this company worth hundreds of millions of dollars, suddenly was worth nothing.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Down the poo-poo hole.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I don't know. I don't know if that'll happen to Twitter. Maybe that's going a bit far, but may take less than people think for people to think, you know what? I just don't like this anymore.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. It took you so much time to build all those followers, Graham. This is probably devastating for you.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I would like everyone to follow me on Mastodon just in case.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh my. Oh God.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Link's in the show notes.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. I'm gonna pin my colours to the mast here and say no one is leaving Twitter.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, I don't know. I think—

---

MARK STOCKLEY. I don't say this is— look, you remember Cambridge Analytica? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And all those people, hashtag delete Facebook.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. It's happening now though. So—

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Facebook's got 2.5 billion users. It didn't even notice. If we can survive Cambridge Analytica, then no one's gonna leave Twitter. You heard it here first.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. By one of our guests, not one of the hosts.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Plausible deniability.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Mark, what story have you got for us this week?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Well, as I said at the intro, I think I might have found a useful application of artificial intelligence.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Ooh, marvellous.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. I know. I'm interested.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. But see what you think. You may agree. So, when I was growing up, it seemed like there were lots of documentaries on TV or things on the TV news about humans trying to understand animals. And the way that we did it, it always seemed to be the same. So, whether it was chimps or dolphins, we were always trying to teach them English or sign language.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Or to communicate through some deck of symbols. So, I remember vaguely, somebody tried to Teach a gorilla, you know, there was a big deck of buttons it could press, and it could say, "I want a banana," and it could press the banana button. And I think there was another one for dolphins that was obviously, it was in the water.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Was that the problem? Was that the problem that we're trying to teach them English, and in fact, that all animals are Belgian?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Something like that. Yeah, if only we tried that.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Getting warmer.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Right.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. So, but you're sort of, you're onto something, 'cause one way or another, the way it looked to me, it was always us asking them to learn a new language of some kind, whether it's symbols on a board or English. And this struck me as very odd, 'cause the conceit was that we are terribly clever. Humans, terribly clever, very different from all the other animals, far cleverer from those stupid animals. And, you know, somehow we use their inability to learn English and sign language or whatever test we set them as proof of our own brilliance.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, it's like Stephen Hawking teaching grade 5 math, you know?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So we should have got them to teach us Belgian, is what you're saying. And then we'd been able to communicate.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Graham, you're doing so good. You're on top of this. Carry on, Mark. You're doing great.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I don't even know if Belgian is a language. I presume it isn't, actually. I've made a blunder there.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, Flemish.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. But yeah.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Thank you. Yes. Bit of Flem.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Bit of French as well, I think. So I remember seeing these as a child and thinking, hang on, if we're the clever ones, shouldn't we take on the burden of learning their language?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Rather than— telling men to learn ours. Well, anyway, as it turns out, there was a whole bunch of other people that had the same thought and they had a far more productive reaction than I did.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Barstool Prophet.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Yeah. Anyway, those people went off and actually had careers trying to find out what animals are saying to each other, unlike me. And what they learned and told us is that they're saying an enormous amount. To each other. So, I'm gonna give you some examples. So for instance—

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. All right.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. We now know that elephants communicate over vast distances using infrasound, which humans can't hear. So for years and years and years, we just assumed that elephants—

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Made trunk calls.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Ugh. Yeah, yeah. I feel like you've been waiting 280 episodes to make that joke. It was just there. Anyway, yeah, elephants make trunk calls, but the sound is too low for us to hear. And elephants have got words for honeybees and humans, and they can communicate the difference between threatening humans and non-threatening humans, which is very useful. You probably know that honeybees communicate all kinds of information about suitable nesting sites and flowers and nectar and things like that using interpretive dance.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Have you seen the waggle dance?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Waggle dance. I've done it, mate. Done it.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. How's that go?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. How does that go?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, did you get an injury? Did you get an injury?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. So, I learned today that sperm whales have got regional accents. Did you know that?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh yeah, they're all from Lancashire, aren't they? Sperm whales?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. No.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Isn't that where you're from?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Well, they have different regional accents. So some of them are from Lancashire.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, I see. Oh, right.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. I also found out that coral reefs can sing. And microscopic coral larvae which have got no central nervous system and no apparent ability to hear, will swim towards the sound of a healthy coral reef singing.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, that's lovely.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. I've discovered that birds have a kind of— they operate this kind of collective early warning system. So what they do is one of them sees a predator and they will communicate how dangerous the predator is. And then the other birds around it will repeat that. And you get this ripple warning that goes out through the community of birds. And this signal travels at about 100 miles an hour, which means that far away, birds can get minutes of advanced warning about a predator.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Fly for your lives!

---

MARK STOCKLEY. You think there's a bird there who's like, "There's nothing can be done. I shall just stay on this—" Existentialist bird. "—and await my fate." Anyway, this system of early warning is so useful that it isn't just the birds that listen to it. There are other animals that will listen in to the birds as well. And they have learned to interpret what those warnings mean. And as I've mentioned before on this podcast, I think even trees have a form of information exchange. And the trees in a forest will use the underground network of fungal mycelium as a sort of arboreal internet. However, it's one thing to witness this communication between two animals or two species. It's quite another to work out exactly what they're trying to say to each other. And that is where I have finally discovered that rarest of gems, a worthwhile application for artificial intelligence. And I learned about this from Vox, which has just published an interview with Dr. Karen Batka, who's written a book called The Sounds of Life: How Digital Technology Is Bringing Us Closer to the Worlds of Animals and Plants. Hang on, hang on.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Why's she putting herself forward for this interview? Why hasn't she put a pot plant forward or some sort of animal? Hot plant. If her AI is so impressive.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Some moss.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Herbert the spider is gonna take over from me right now.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. I'm a bit busy, so here's my chihuahua. You know.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Had you considered a career as the sole director of Twitter?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. That, yeah, you get all the animals on Twitter after this AI. Carry on with your story. Could they get on Twitter? That's my question.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. That's a brilliant idea. Hold that thought. Okay. Okay, so anyway, so Vox has just published the interview with Dr. Karen Bakker, who's written a book. Vox writes, automated listening posts have been set up in ecosystems around the planet, from rainforests to the depths of the ocean, and all of this recording creates a great deal of data which can't be sorted manually. Enter AI, which of course can sift through mountains of data and find patterns and even perhaps make dictionaries. Oh. From different animal species' words. Right. And one day she conjectures that all of this sifting and sorting of animal communication could lead to a sort of Google Translate for animal languages. Ah, you see? And act as an intermediary between us and other animal species. So we might be able to use AI to create two-way communications between us and the animal kingdom.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I'm loving that for England and the pheasants, right? During hunting season. These birds that are kept in cages without their mothers and then released into the wild with absolutely no information so that rich people can go hunt them easily. I wonder what they're saying to the people.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I think what they're saying is, "Fuck, will you stop shooting me?" Yeah, yeah.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I think exactly. I was thinking, "Fuck off, will you?" Jeez. Fascinating.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. We needed AI to tell us that.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, and then thank God for AI.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Wonderful. So fascinatingly, the earliest stages of interspecies communication have already begun. Excellent. So in the interview, Dr. Backer tells Vox about rudimentary communications with honeybees, dolphins, and elephants. And all of that sounds rather wonderful to me until you realize that humans are involved And of course, no sooner does she say that we have started to communicate with these things than she offers a great big warning that we might screw it all up and turn it into a weapon and crash an ecosystem. So I'll give you an example. This is the example that she gave to Vox. She says, I'll give you an example. A research team in Germany encoded honeybee signals into a robot that they then sent into a hive.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh. You're to—

---

MARK STOCKLEY. oh, I hate humans sometimes. The robot is able to use the honeybees' waggle dance communication to tell the honeybees to stop moving, and it's able to tell them where to fly to find a specific nectar source. The next stage in this research is to implant these robots into honeybee hives so that the hives accept these robots as members of their community from birth. And then we would have an unprecedented degree of control over the hive. We'll have essentially domesticated that hive in a way that we've never done before. And this creates possibilities of exploitative use of animals. And there's a long history of the military use of animals. So that's one path I think raises a lot of alarm bells. You don't say. No, no, no.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I see. When you said that there's a danger of us exploiting animals through this technology, I thought maybe we'd give them phone calls saying, have you been missold PPI or had a recent car accident?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Hi, this is your Auntie Marsha and I need some money. I need some honey deliveries. Yeah.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. So she talks about military use of animals and, you know, you probably know about dogs in the military. Maybe you know about dolphins in the military? You work with military dolphins? Yes.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And pigeons and doves and everything.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Everything to get their hands on stuff. They're very militant dolphins, aren't they? They're the ones who wear the berets.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Well, apparently, apparently, as I was doing some research this morning, there were rumours in the '70s and the '80s that the dolphins were being trained to kill divers. And the person who is responsible for this program says, basically, you can't teach dolphins to kill people. And him saying that implies that they've tried, doesn't it? Turns out they won't do that. Anyway, I think that there is another equally world-altering possibility here, and you kind of hinted at it with the pheasants. Okay. So one of the projects that Bacher is talking about, I think, is CETI, which is spelled C-E-T-I, which is obviously supposed to make you think of SETI, which is S—

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. have you heard of SETI? The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So there's that. And then there's CETI with a C, which is the Cetician Translation Initiative. Okay. Which is using machine learning and what it calls gentle robotics, because it's 2022. And if you don't say your robots are gentle—

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. We get afraid.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Just assume that they're just Boston Dynamics dogs with guns on. Anyway, they're using gentle robotics and machine learning to decipher the communication of sperm whales. And I remember hearing about this a couple of years ago. And when I first heard that, I thought the idea of finding out what whales have got to say to each other sounded fantastic. And then I realized that we are probably quite a hot topic among the whales, particularly the sperm whales. And we might not actually want to hear what they've got to say.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh my God, I wanna start the gossip rag. I wanna start the gossip rag. And then another sperm whale said, "You wouldn't believe what humans did yesterday." Well, I imagine we could have one on Sticky Pickles.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Yes. That would be great. A whole other vista of possible guests.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Fantastic. I love it.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Anyway, I imagine the first thing that the sperm whales would say if they could talk to us would be, "Could you turn the noise down, please?" Yeah. Because, you know, they've been around for a few tens of millions of years and they were able to communicate over huge distances. And then boats with engines turned up. Yeah. And suddenly they couldn't. And then boats with sonar turned up, and then they all got headaches and died. Anyway, it's also worth bearing in mind that sperm whales can live for 70 years. And that means that there are probably sperm whales who are still alive now who were alive during the age of industrial whaling.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Which only came to a close in 1980. So, I think if they're about, they might have something to say. Yes. Anyway, what do you think? So you've said you want to know what the pheasants have got to say. What other animals are you dying to hear from?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Giraffes. Like, do they get sore necks?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I bet gerbils have got some interesting stories to share.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, let's end there, please.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Kro, what have you got for us this week?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. All right, we are heading once again into the metaverse. Get your tinfoil hats. So now the metaverse we all pretend to understand is a VR-based world independent of our physical one, where people can socialize, engage in like unlimited variety of virtual experiences, so they say, all supported by its own digital economy as well. And listeners might remember that a year ago when Facebook rebranded to Meta, it soon opened access to its virtual reality social media platform, Horizon Worlds, which is still today its biggest platform in this area. And there were teething problems. Do you remember we spoke about in one of our episodes where people were sounding the alarm of digital sexual harassment on the platform? Oh, yes. Yeah. And then people egging them on.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. It was really unfortunate use of the word digital there, I suspected. Glancing past.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. So now here we are a year later and Meta has recently had its Meta Connect event where many a tech journo were hoping to get an answer to a pretty simple question. Why? What's the point? Right? What? Of the metaverse. What's the point of the metaverse? Yes.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Can you answer that? Are they suggesting the emperor has no clothes? It's a wonderful, wonderful— Legs. The emperor's got no legs. The emperor's got no— just floats. They're coming, they're coming.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. The legs are coming. Because it's not like there's a massive demand for this kind of world from the consumer market. I mean, of course, it's maybe fun to play around, but it's not TikTok.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Aren't there like 38 regular users or something?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, the Zuckinator came out at Meta Connect and said, the answer, guys, to what's the point is work, he said. And at first, you might think that workers are clamoring for this virtual environment where they can interact. But that's not what I'm seeing or hearing.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. No, no, I'm not imagining that, Carole.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. No. OK. No. I was talking to our listeners, Graham, actually. Oh, OK. But they probably weren't thinking either. But you see, at Meta Connect, Zucks announced that Meta is working with tech business leader Microsoft to make available virtual sessions of business software such as Office and Teams. And these will be incorporated into the Horizon Workroom virtual office platform, which kind of has been widely ridiculed for its low-quality graphics and floating legless avatars. So does this partnership with Meta and Microsoft make sense to you guys? What do you see there? It's genius.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. You think? Really? Or no? It's brilliant. I think both of them should put all of their resources into this rather than anything else. Great. Great. Yeah. Great for all the other tech companies, I imagine. Very good.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. What you have to understand about Microsoft is that Microsoft has two decent products, Office and that mouse that it makes. And what it's done is, because everybody uses Windows and it does all this bundled licensing, it has foisted all sorts of software that people absolutely hate into businesses very successfully over a long period of time. Yes. So, Internet Information Server, absolutely terrible, terrible web server full of security holes when it came out. Very widely used. Microsoft Teams. Nobody likes Microsoft Teams. It's way more widely used than Zoom because it just gets bundled in. Microsoft SharePoint, possibly the worst piece of software ever invented anywhere by anyone. It's all through the corporate world because you just get it free once you've paid the sky-high license fees for everything you want, you just get it. And that's what, that's what'll happen with this.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. And thanks to our sponsors this week, Microsoft, for supporting the show.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Mark, you're exactly right, right? Because think about how Microsoft became a household name by cracking the enterprise market first. And Meta needs to gain some credibility in the enterprise market if it's going to sell its work theory, so why not partner with Microsoft, who has a history of building trusted business software? Shit software. Well, yes, but successful.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Think of the typical cynical IT person, right? Now picture them wearing a headset. Yes, imagine them saying, oh, this sounds like a good idea. Yes, we'd love to have the workers in headsets. They're not going to go for this, are they?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. An article by Smart Company on the topic, Graham, said by focusing on the enterprise market, firms can normalize this technology in society. And this might not be something that consumers want to use, to Mark's point, but rather that workers are forced to use. Like, because you may not like Microsoft products, but you're forced to use it in your own business environment and it somehow trickles down into your home.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Won't this just normalize leaving a job because they make me wear a stupid headset? It's a bit like wearing Google Glasses and going to a sensible company, which just gets on with work.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Why would a company want you to do that, you think? Why would they want everything to be virtual? Would it not be because then they can actually record every single behavior you've ever done in your life?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Ah, the security angle.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. The security angle. The privacy and security angle.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. It's appeared. Half an hour into your story. Wonderful. Actually, 8 minutes.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. 8 minutes. But thanks. So the bossware angle, that's a big privacy concern. And this typically refers to software that's installed across enterprises to monitor employees. And this approach, if we push everyone into the metaverse, it does have a bit of a whiff of the Orwellian, doesn't it? But not everyone is surprised, right? For example, there's journalist Janice Rose, who in The Intercept in 2016, after watching Mark Zuckerberg's first-stage flirtation with the VR headset, said, "This could only mean one thing.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Zuckerberg wants to build a virtual environment where all human behavior can be recorded, predicted, and monetized." You don't think it's just because Mark Zuckerberg is so socially awkward that he has been promoting the metaverse so much? Because he knows that people find him really, really weird. So if he makes everybody else just as weird by putting them into the metaverse, he begins to look a little bit more normal.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Another concern here, Graham, is like almost— I don't know if it sounds lofty, but like mind control through like nudge behavior. So, for example, you may have to use this at work, but you'll turn on a lot of safety features. And then others might kind of say, "Hey, you should turn those off. You know, it's not seen as cool. You don't seem as part of the team, and it could have negative impacts." on marginalized workers. So behavior nudging based on a gazillion datasets with Zuck as our unesteemed leader at the helm, pulling all the levers like the Wizard of Oz master. But I'm being cynical.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. No, I don't, I don't think you are. Cause I remember going to a tech conference in 2007, which is when Second Life was failing to take off. Well, it was sort of taking off and then sputtering and then And then sort of gently landing in the swamp at the end of the runway. The people who were talking about it at this tech conference were talking about the fact that you could see which billboards people were looking at online and, you know, where their eyes were, where their virtual eyes were looking and how long they lingered on something. Web analytics can tell where your cursor is and where that's hovering, but it can't track your eyes. It can't tell you where your attention is. It can only approximate that. Whereas the virtual, so this has been an overt selling point for these sorts of virtual environments. But the thing is, that's a reason why the people who make it want it to happen. And what I don't see with the metaverse, I see lots and lots of things with the metaverse that the people who make it want to happen. And I haven't seen anything at all looks like a thing that users are genuinely, that solves a problem. I don't know.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I've seen one, like, you know, if it's people who do concerts could have concerts where anyone in the world can attend them live. Well, in this digital live world.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. See, I can watch them on YouTube and I just don't. Yeah. I'd rather watch them in their full 4K glory than some sort of weird blobby wax approximation of them.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. But, you know, if you're worried about any security element in this, don't worry because Meta technical chief Andrew Bosworth says he's adamant that they can be trusted to forge this new generation of the internet. He has a quote. Frankly, he says, frankly, there's no one who's investing more in privacy and data security. Nobody is more focused on this problem than Meta.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. We are keeping the data that we have taken from you very secure. I tell you that the most convincing explanation that I have seen so far for what all this metaverse stuff is really about is the idea of the billionaire's curse, which is that, you know, you make all the money in the world, you've got more money than God, and then one day you wake up and you realize that you're going to die just like everybody else. And when you get into that sort of fraction of a trillionaire kind of rarefied air, suddenly they get gripped by the need to go and populate other planets Bitcoin, do things like that. And I think that the metaverse, this is not my original thought, I have glommed onto someone else's, but I think the metaverse is Zuck's retirement plan. So when he dies, he's going to upload his consciousness to a fully immersive, fully realistic reality. And the only way he can get there and fund that is if he comes up with something that businesses will buy that looks like a bunch of legless waxworks now.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, have fun, guys. New VR headset only available for $1,500 to $2,000. So, you know, cheap. Have fun.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Every day, billions of people around the world connect with their favorite brands online through shopping, gaming, banking, learning, and more. Every second, the internet gets more chaotic, more cyber threats. Securing entire ecosystems, clouds, apps, APIs, and users that grows more complex, causing friction that slows innovation and hampers agility. With Akamai, cybersecurity can become an engine for innovation and growth. Whether you want to achieve unmatched security with Akamai's suite of app and API protection or embrace a zero-trust architecture, Akamai can help. With insights from the world's most distributed compute platform, Akamai delivers unique security research on the latest attacks and trends on everything from ransomware as a service, gangs like Conti, DDoS attacks, phishing attacks, to help you protect your business. Where else can you take advantage of insights from 7 trillion DNS queries per day. Learn more about Akamai and their security research. Visit their website, akamai.com/smashing. That's A-K-A-M-A-I dot com slash smashing.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Smashing Security listeners, did you know that Bitdefender is the only open-source, cross-platform password manager that can be used at home, on the go, or at work, Bitwarden's password manager securely stores credentials spanning across personal and business worlds. And every Bitwarden account begins with the creation of a personal vault, which allows you to store all your personal credentials. These are unique and secure passwords for every single account you access. And it's easy to set up. It's easy to use. I honestly love Bitwarden. I use it at home, use it at work, use it on the go. Get started with a free trial of a Teams or Enterprise plan at bitwarden.com/smashing, or you can even try it for free across devices as an individual user. Check it out at bitwarden.com/smashing. And thanks to Bitwarden for sponsoring the show.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. The challenge with endpoint security has always been that it's difficult to scale. And when remote work took over, that challenge got exponentially harder. You need visibility into your fleet of devices in order to meet security goals and reduce service desk tickets. But how do you get that visibility when different parts of your company run on Mac, Windows and Linux? Well, you get Kolide. Kolide is an endpoint security solution that gives IT teams a single dashboard for all devices regardless of operating system. Kolide gives you real-time access to your fleet's data and can do things that traditional MDMs can't. And instead of installing intrusive agents or locking down devices, Kolide takes a user-focused approach that communicates security recommendations to your workers directly on Slack. You can answer every question you have about your fleet without intruding on your workforce. Visit kolide.com/smashing to find out how. If you follow that link, they'll hook you up with a goodie bag just for activating a free trial. That's k-o-l-i-d-e dot com slash smashing. And thanks to Kolide for supporting the show. And welcome back. Can you join us for our favorite part of the show? The part of the show that we like to call Pick of the Week.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Pick of the Week. Pick of the Week.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Pick of the Week is the part of the show where everyone chooses something they like. Could be a funny story, a book that they've read, a TV show, a movie, a record, a podcast, a website, or an app. Whatever they wish. Doesn't have to be security related necessarily. Better not be. Well, my Pick of the Week this week, is it security related? I'll tell you. Anyway, right. I've been, you know, going around on the internet for a little while. And in the last few weeks, I've been a little bit irritated because I go to a website and suddenly in the top right-hand corner pops up a message saying, oh, sign into Google, or, you know, you can register for this site with your Google account. Why don't you do it? It's like, what? Bugger off. Bugger off. This pop-up appears all the time in the top right-hand corner. Why is it doing this all the time? And all these websites are suddenly saying to me, oh, you can log in with that. You can log in with Google. I don't want it to, right? I've gotta—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. So, so, so you press the X and then carry on with your day? Yes.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. But yes. Yes. Okay. Until I go—

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. and that's my pick of the week is pressing the X.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. I'm going to Smashing Security.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. And, and I've been a little bit annoyed about this and because I don't want to sign in with Google, I've got a password manager that I trust to look after all my password security. All the passwords are different. I don't wanna sign in with my social login malarkey. And it's always every website I'm going to, Slip off. And so I'm going to tell everyone how to turn off the Sign in with Google prompt. I found it on the web, how to do it. I've done it myself and now I'm very, very happy. So I'll put a link in the show notes, but I will tell you all because I'm sure you're all just as upset as I am about this. Outraged. Go to myaccount.google.com, navigate to security, click on Signing in with Google. And you will find a toggle, a toggle next to Google account sign-in prompts, which they have helpfully turned on without asking you, and just turn it off.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I must have turned mine off ages ago because I don't have that ever.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Hmm.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, maybe you're just better than me, Carole, but I doubt that very much, Graham.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Very much. Alternatively, just click on the X in the top right-hand corner and then it disappears. Just be cool. Yeah. Oh, okay. Good for you. That's my pick of the week.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Fair enough.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Mark, what's your pick of the week?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. My pick of the week is a Twitter account, the Twitter account belonging to Julia Davis, which you can find @JuliaDavisNews. So Julia Davis is a columnist for The Daily Beast, and she has created what she calls the Russian Media Monitor. And this has become must-watch morning entertainment for me. Oh. So when I, when I get up in the morning, I go and have my cornflakes, I get my phone out, and I go and see what Julia Davis has tweeted in the night. Because what she's doing is she is watching Russian state TV so that the rest of us don't have to. And it is fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. So, I have been— so obviously Russia has invaded Ukraine and is committing all kinds of horrific genocidal war crimes. It's clearly a very, very serious thing, and I don't wish to make light of that, but I do think that gallows humor is inevitable in a situation like this. And I also think it's worthwhile keeping an eye on your adversary. And Russian state TV is something to behold. It's like they've looked at Fox News and they've gone, ah, it's a little bit namby-namby. It's a little bit wishy-washy. And it's where they test out talking points. And you can see, you can chart the course of the conflict in the way that they're talking on these TV. There's a panel show where they have a ring of very, very unhealthy looking gentlemen generally all trying to out argue each other for which bits of Ukraine they should nuke and whether or not they should invade Brussels and whether or not they should invade Washington. And it's quite fascinating to watch and it can actually be quite useful as well. So you remember not very long ago they announced this partial mobilization. Well, just prior to that, the tone on this TV program suddenly changed and they went from bombast and talking about the fact that they were winning, even though they had been in retreat for several months, they suddenly started talking about how good their enemy was and how sophisticated the weapons their enemy had got. And it just overnight, it suddenly changed. And the reaction of the people following this account was, ah, a mobilization is coming because they're trying to change public opinion. And it was only a few days in advance, but that happens quite a lot.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. So it's like predicting actions based on indirect messaging through propagandist tactics.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Yeah, exactly. Yes. What do we want the population to understand about this conflict now, even if it's direct opposite of what we said yesterday? But the really interesting thing about this is which bits of American media they like. And they really like Tucker Carlson. So they— Don't we all? Don't we all? He's a great guy. Often play clips from his show. And just today, the clip that was tweeted today, they were talking about how Trump had given them 4 years to prepare for the invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine in the way that he changed the way that the US dealt with Russia. So effectively it was able to recover from previous regimes of sanctions and it had 4 years to ready itself. And that was quite interesting too.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I'm seeing one of our recent posts right now where she says Russian state TV is telling viewers it's better to die than lose the war to the wicked West. And it claims that if they lose, Russians will be on display in Western zoos alongside the animals. So, there's some pretty crazy stuff going on out there.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. That's pretty standard. Right, okay. But what's interesting there is that they are now talking about it being a war. Yes. And not a special— because they weren't allowed to say war for a very long time. That's right. And they've reframed the whole thing. Like, you would never, if you watched it, you would never believe that they invaded Ukraine. It's all framed as a war with the West. And it's a war with NATO. And now it's all about what would happen if they lose. It's not about— or winning means getting an inch of territory. If we've got an inch of territory, then we've won.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. It's fascinating. This is all very well, Mark, but is this more important than the pop-up I'm seeing from Google appearing in the corner of my screen?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Well, if you just click the X.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Carole, what's your pick of the week?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, my pick of the week is about where I was this past weekend, because I was I was in Vienna for a friend's birthday shindig. And on Saturday, we went to the opera at the— at the— I'm gonna try and say this— the Wiener Staatsoper. It's one of the leading opera houses in the world. And I know absolutely nothing about opera world. But I can say my mind was pretty blown in more ways than one. I tell you that I went to see La Traviata, a 19th century melodrama in 3 acts by Verdi. This big, fancy opera house, what do you imagine?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Oh, costumes, very, very large lady. Mm-hmm.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Lots of people on the stage. Mm-hmm. Yeah. An orchestra. Mm-hmm. I imagine you're dressed up to the nines.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Not everybody was. Some people were, and some people were like almost wearing jeans. Yeah. I read the rules and it says, "Please do not come in flip-flops or have suitable—" Okay. Fair enough. Let me just read this. This is the best way to explain it. So Violetta is not only a prostitute in this, in this show, she's also an influencer with millions of followers on Instagram and Twitter. She has her own perfume line and is a huge celebrity. Oh, okay. So this is Robert Cousin's stage, an enormous revolving cube corner with three sides adjacent sides of a cube. So it's like, I don't know, it's hard to explain, but imagine a cube on stage. That spins and revolves. And it's—

---

MARK STOCKLEY. is it meant to be a phone?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. No, it's kind of like they just keep spinning it and then there's different scenes happening. It was quite— oh, it's only the screens. Yeah, it's quite cool. So during the prelude, these screens show us Violetta's social media feed, her Instagram selfies, comments from her followers, but also emails from doctors advising therapy for her cancer. So they replaced consumption, uh, with cancer as the illness that kills her, right? In Act 2, okay, this is where my jaw dropped. In Act 2, the party at Flores is a mix between a fancy dress ball and an orgy, with explicit images and neon lights in the background, and the chorus wearing the weirdest costumes, many with BDSM overtones. So, Dr. Grenville has a dildo strapped on his forehead. What? Sideways, but not in the front, thank God. Alfredo came out as Donald Duck, and there was this other character with a dildo strapped to the bottom of his back. So, it was super surreal for me to watch all this craziness on stage. And then, you know, you just look around and you see people in ball gowns and all the glitz and the gold of, you know, this huge opulent opera house.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Did you feel like you were being warmed up for something? Like someone's gonna sidle over and say, "My wife and I have been watching you from the other side of the bar.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. We like your vibe." You'd been taken there by someone because it was his birthday. Day? It sounds like he knew about this in advance.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, but we also had drama offstage. Oh, okay. You have to imagine there's like 1,000 people, okay? Lots of them gussied up in this massive opera house.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Suddenly, some with dildos, Donald Duck.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And the first intermission is almost at the end, so everyone's back in their seats. And we— I see a few cops on the ground floor, right? And they're rushing into a room, and they've got this guy. And I'm like, hey, look, look, look, look. And other people are noticing. We're all kind of— and And then, like, these 3 cops come out and they clear out 2 rows in the bottom and they go up to this guy who'd refused to move and they said, "Please move, Mr. Epstein." And he refused. Did he have flip-flops? He was sitting there. He's quite a big man, right? But his arms crossed and sitting with his arm, you know, his legs are straight and just kind of sitting there. And so then more cops came over and they tried to pick him up and he refused to move. And then more cops came and the guy slithered down to the ground and lied like a board on the floor. And then it took him 8 cops to lift this guy as he was shouting out of the room. Meanwhile, on my floor, the women were like, stop filming, stop filming, everyone stop filming. So it was very exciting. Anyway, go to the opera. It's not what you think.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. What had he done?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, very interesting. So the papers all say that he basically was saying, oh, this show is awful. I don't like the show because it is a controversial show.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. This is— who does that? It sounds awful. It sounds like a terrible show.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. It wasn't awful. It wasn't awful.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, not if you like that kind of thing, Carole.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, I thought it was great. Thank you very much. I see. But I asked a policeman when I was on the streets, right? I saw him and he was, you know, he was just lying there. I was like, hey, did you hear what happened? And he said there was a match with Austria versus Poland and that this guy kicked off at the match and, you know, did a bit of busting up and then went off to the opera and they found him at the opera.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Football hooligans are different.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Who knows what happened?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Different enough. Who knows?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Who knows? Who knows? Anyway, my Pick of the Week is La Traviata. Listen to the opera, 'cause it's beautiful. And, or you can go see the website. There's lots of history on the opera house as well.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. That just about wraps up the show for this week. Mark, I'm sure lots of our listeners would love to follow you on any social media network which you might be a member of. What's the best, or the metaverse? What's the best way for folks to do that?

---

MARK STOCKLEY. You'll never find me on the metaverse. But you will find me on Twitter. I'm staying. You'll find me @MarkStockley.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. And if there are any sperm whales listening, you can follow us on Twitter @SmashInSecurity. No G, Twitter wouldn't allow us to have a G, but maybe Elon Musk will. We'll have to wait and see. That'll keep us. And we also have a Smashing Security subreddit. And don't forget, if you never want to miss another episode, follow Smashing Security in your favorite podcast app. You can do that on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And huge shout out once again to our episode sponsors, Kolide, Bitwarden, and Akamai, and to our wonderful Patreon community. It's thanks to them all that this show is free. For episode show notes, sponsorship information, guest list, and the entire back catalog of more than 295 episodes, check out smashingsecurity.com.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Until next time, cheerio. Bye-bye. Bye.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Bye.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yuck! What the— what is that?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. That's my dolphin noise. I was speaking to the dolphins.

---

MARK STOCKLEY. Doing, doing, doing something to the The dolphins.

-- TRANSCRIPT ENDS --