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180: Taking care of Clare

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May 27, 2020
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On this special splinter episode of the podcast, we're joined by actor and comedian Clare Blackwood in the hope of convincing her that cybersecurity is no laughing matter.

Hear what happens in the latest edition of the "Smashing Security" podcast by computer security veterans Graham Cluley and Carole Theriault, joined this week by Carole's cousin (!) Clare Blackwood.

Visit https://www.smashingsecurity.com/180 to check out this episode’s show notes and episode links.

Follow the show on Twitter at @SmashinSecurity, or on the Smashing Security subreddit, or visit our website for more episodes.

Remember: Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or your favourite podcast app, to catch all of the episodes as they go live. Thanks for listening!

Warning: This podcast may contain nuts, adult themes, and rude language.

Theme tune: "Vinyl Memories" by Mikael Manvelyan.

Assorted sound effects: AudioBlocks.

Special Guest: Clare Blackwood.

Sponsored By:

Support Smashing Security

Links:

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Transcript +

This transcript was generated automatically, and has not been manually verified. It may contain errors and omissions. In particular, speaker labels, proper nouns, and attributions may be incorrect. Treat it as a helpful guide rather than a verbatim record — for the real thing, give the episode a listen.

GRAHAM CLULEY. And there are bad people even in Canada. Not many. Not many in Canada.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. There's like one. Yeah. There's a guy who lives in my building, you know.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Steve, right?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah, Steve.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Damn Steve.

UNKNOWN. Damn you, Steve. Smashing Security, episode 180, Taking Care of Clare, with Carole Theriault and Graham Cluley. Hello, hello, and welcome to Smashing Security episode 180. My name's Graham Cluley.

CAROLE THERIAULT. And I'm Carole Theriault. It's a special episode this week, Graham.

GRAHAM CLULEY. What makes it so special, Carole?

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, we're doing a splinter episode this week, and we're doing it with someone who's never laid a toe, I bet, inside a technology company.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Very sensible.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Can we introduce her?

CAROLE THERIAULT. Shall I do it this week?

GRAHAM CLULEY. Of course, you do it.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Let me introduce Clare Blackwood, comedian and actor based in Toronto, Canada.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Thank you so much for having me.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Clare, tell us a bit about yourself. How have you come to end up on the Smashing Security podcast? What weird combination in the stars has caused this to happen? What— why are you here? Why are you here?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. It helps to be related to one of the hosts of the podcast.

GRAHAM CLULEY. That's right, that's right. So Clare's my sister-in-law.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes. Yeah, I'm actually his mother. I don't know if you can tell. Have you done your laundry lately?

GRAHAM CLULEY. So Clare, you are Carole's cousin.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I am.

CAROLE THERIAULT. And my much younger cousin.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Younger, more attractive, funnier.

CAROLE THERIAULT. And more beautiful. More talented.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Smart, smart, smart.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, yes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. I adore her. Now, Clare has come kindly agreed to come on the show, so we're so grateful. But, um, we thought it might be interesting because Clare doesn't live in the same world as we do, so we thought we would try and find out how she uses technology and whether or not we can make her a little bit more secure without making her life a security hell.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Well, basically yes, because Carole, when you asked me to come on your podcast, I automatically— because I am an actor who needs constant validation and gigs, I said yes. And then I, uh, took a look at what that meant, and I kind of thought, well, I know absolutely nothing about security, uh, whatsoever.

GRAHAM CLULEY. It's never stopped Carole and me, to be honest. 180 podcasts.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I mean, fair enough, but like, I'm pretty sure I have never locked my phone in my life. Like, let's just— like, let's, let's take it all the way back here. Like, we're not talking, you know, I haven't used the right VPN when, oh, blah, blah, blah. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I am a basic bitch. I got nothing. I do nothing.

CAROLE THERIAULT. This is gonna be a great show.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. Carole, Carole, tell us what's coming up on today's show. There's so much to get into there. Yes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. It's gonna be wonderful. Okay. First, let's thank this week's sponsors, Immersive Labs and LastPass. Their support helps us give you this show for free. Now on this special Splinter episode, Graham and I have invited a special guest who doesn't have anything to do with technology. Security, and we are going to see whether we can make her safer online without boring the pants off her. All this and much more coming up on this special splinter episode of Smashing Security.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay, now, chums, I think we can all call each other chums, right?

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes, we all know each other. You've met Clare. Yeah, Clare's lived with me before.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes, in Oxford. Yeah, that's right.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Years and years and years ago, back in the days when I was allowed to go and visit Carole's house.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Oh no, that's a whole other story.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Anyway, but I said we have met, right? And you've already said some fascinating things.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, I first— Yeah, but can we first maybe get Clare to kind of describe her life? Like, let's just kind of build the picture of Clare so that people can kind of go, "I relate," or, "I don't relate," or, "I know someone like this." Or like, "Jesus Christ, Carole, your cousin is so ridiculous." Unique like me, unique like me. So Clare, you're an actor. Tell us all about that.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah, I'm a classically trained actor. I studied at the University of Toronto and Sheridan College for Theatre, and I've been acting in the city for about 10 years. Most recently, I've kind of delved into comedy, improvised comedy, sketch comedy, writing that, studying at the Second City. And I do a lot of freelance comedy writing, mostly satire. I write for, uh, basically Canada's number one satire website. It's called The Beaverton. Ah yeah, it's actually like the Canadian version of The Onion.

CAROLE THERIAULT. I didn't know you wrote for them.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I do write for them. I've written to them for a year and a half.

CAROLE THERIAULT. I had no idea.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Cool. Yeah, I basically just get to get mad about things and write comedy about them.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Is there, is there anything going on in the world to get mad about or to be satirical about? I thought everything was going really, really well.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Everyone's getting along very well. Nothing's going on. We're practically so bored we could cry. We watch cheese puffs on TV and think it's okay. Essentially, I just kind of sit and stare at my wall for like 20 hours a day till I go to bed.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Now, pre-Rona, right?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. As a freelancer, did you work from home? Like, did you work at your desk, or did you like to go work in cafes?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Or my life pre-Rona, uh, was essentially the complete opposite of what I'm doing right now. I mean, I— you'll find that with any independent actors, writers in Toronto, like, we're kind of constantly making as much work for ourselves as we possibly can. So My days were spent out of my house working at my serving job. If I'm not working at my serving job, I'm doing meetings, I'm in writing meetings, I'm in sketch rehearsals, I'm performing at night in several different shows a night going from one theater to another. I'm sitting in a cafe or a bar writing a screenplay or an article to be published or anything. So basically, like, I've now been home for over 2.5 months. I'm fairly certain my cat is planning on killing me to get me out of the house.

CAROLE THERIAULT. There's some great jokes.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. You laugh, but when you don't hear from me next week—

CAROLE THERIAULT. there's some great jokes like, why won't they leave?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. What's going on? Good woman, take a walk. Like, yeah, yeah. And meanwhile, dogs are like, this is so amazing, this is the best day of my life. Yeah, yeah. So, um, I'm just kind of chilling. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to work from home all the time, and I miss, you know, my friends and family, but I've just been basically spending my days writing.

GRAHAM CLULEY. So your life beforehand was— there was a fair bit of technology involved in it. You must have had calendars and reminders and meetings and things to log into.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes, things to log into for sure. I use a hard copy calendar. I am my mother's daughter. I hate having my calendar on my phone.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Right.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. But like social media is my game. You know, I—

CAROLE THERIAULT. So you're all over Facebook, you're all over Instagram.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Oh, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Clare, was it TikTok that I saw you on doing a dance?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Oh no. Uh, yes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, I forgot.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I— yeah, my brain snapped, uh, about two weeks into quarantine, and I just all of a sudden woke up like I blacked out. When I came to, I downloaded TikTok. Um, you know, I'm a 32-year-old woman, and now I'm making videos for the 18-year-old rich kids in the States. I downloaded TikTok purely because I wanted to make my family and friends laugh by making ridiculously stupid content, which I have been. I actually got interviewed by the Los Angeles Times about being an old person learning dances on TikTok. I'm pretty sure, like, I will never get better than that. That is—

CAROLE THERIAULT. that's just all of the things that represent me and why I'm part of it.

GRAHAM CLULEY. It is fairly ancient compared to us, girl. I know.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. No, she— the interviewer literally told me that she found me on Twitter by searching TikTok dance old. Like, I'm I am not hyperbolizing here. I am ancient on TikTok. I am like a solid 12 years older than the average user.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, maybe you should join just to, you know, bring it up.

GRAHAM CLULEY. My wife is on, well, she's a consumer of TikTok. I don't think she's producing videos for it behind my back, but she's on it and she's a fair bit older than Clare, I can say in a fairly gentlemanly fashion, hopefully.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Otherwise you'd be married to a child. So, good.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. This would be a very different conversation.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. Okay. Enough, enough Rona talk, guys.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. So you're going around, you're bopping around in the earlier days when you had your normal life.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. You had a laptop. You used that?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I do have a laptop. It's approximately 5,000 years old, so I don't use it really for anything other than writing.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. If I leave the house, I have my iPhone or an iPad.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. So iPhone and/or iPad with you, right?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. Okay.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I don't generally bring my iPad out of the house unless I am going to the aforementioned cafe or bar to write.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. Or like if I'm going to a rehearsal and you leave the huge brick at home of a laptop.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, right.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah. In the corner where it belongs.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay. So unless you're writing in a coffee house or something, you're like everybody else. You've got a smartphone on you.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. So we're going to focus on the phone, I think, a bit.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. So let's start with You mentioned in the preamble that you don't lock your smartphone.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I don't. And here's where all of your listeners are going to be like, God, Carole, who is this woman? How are you related to her? I fully am cognizant of how bad that is to do. Like, I'm not naive. I realize that if somebody were to steal my phone, I would be, to use cheeky colloquialisms, fucked. Um, but I just— I— it just drives me crazy. Yeah.

CAROLE THERIAULT. So you have an iPhone?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes, I have an iPhone 8 Plus.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, so it does have Touch ID, doesn't it?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. If we walked you through how to set up fingerprint ID, would you consider it, or would that be annoying? What would be your concerns about not doing it, do you think?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Uh, is— does fingerprint ID— do I have to do anything other than just Open my phone normally?

CAROLE THERIAULT. No, you would literally like you'd go get your phone and then it would just say, put your thumbprint on the little thingamajig.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Right, right.

CAROLE THERIAULT. And then your phone then opens magically.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. Or your finger or your nose, maybe. Or your toe. I mean, what the—

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh no, don't be silly, Graham.

GRAHAM CLULEY. No, I bet you could use your nose.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Can we not experiment with Clare?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I mean, please experiment with me. Like, I am your fun little naive guinea pig here.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Graham, what do you think? Do you wanna try and set her up with fingerprint ID?

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, I think that'd be a jolly good idea, yeah.

CAROLE THERIAULT. If you're up for it, Clare, should we do that?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Let's do it.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Let's do it, okay.

CAROLE THERIAULT. And then maybe you can set your phone to lock every minute to see how annoying you find it.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, she shouldn't be checking her phone while she's on the podcast.

CAROLE THERIAULT. She can multitask.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I am not checking my phone when I'm on the podcast.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Professional, you see, Crod.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Professional.

GRAHAM CLULEY. So, what do you want to do, Crod? Do you actually want me to walk through how to do this?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay. How'd you do it?

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, and people at home, if you don't have a lock on your phone, you can follow at the same time. We haven't rehearsed this. This is on the fly.

GRAHAM CLULEY. No, we haven't. So— Okay, I'll try and do this. I'll try and do this. So, Clare, hi.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Hello.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Go into your Settings app, right? That's the thing which looks like a cog.

CAROLE THERIAULT. A grey cog.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Right. And then scroll down until you see something which hopefully says Touch ID and passcode. Now, normally it will ask you at this point for your existing passcode to gain access, but you haven't got a passcode.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I haven't, but it does say add a fingerprint.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Right. Okay. So, so click on add a fingerprint.

CAROLE THERIAULT. So, yeah, but think about which one you want to use. I used my, my right thumb because that was the hand I always used.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Don't tell people this, they might chop your thumb off.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. What if they kidnap you and steal your finger?

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes. I don't use fingerprint ID at the moment.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Do you not?

CAROLE THERIAULT. No, I use a passcode. A very long one. It's very complicated.

GRAHAM CLULEY. All right. Okay. Fair enough.

CAROLE THERIAULT. That's the way I roll.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Anyway, so you, you basically, it says add a fingerprint, right? And you click that and it will then lead you through the process and it'll ask you to touch the little button, which you often are pressing with one of your fingers.

CAROLE THERIAULT. You should probably follow the instructions, I think, on the phone. What, you can't?

GRAHAM CLULEY. I thought you'd want me to lead people through it. For God's sake, you give me this enormous task without any warning of teaching someone how to do this.

CAROLE THERIAULT. I think you're doing a really good job, Graham.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Right. Thank you. So do that. And then after a while, it'll tell you to adjust your grip. So as though you're holding the phone slightly differently and again, use your finger.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. La la la la. Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's registering my fingerprint for sure.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Right. So what, what you will find frustrating is if you've only registered one finger because you think, oh, for goodness sake. Or sometimes you might want to use the other hand so you can add a few different fingers. But now With that in place, you can—

CAROLE THERIAULT. Once it's in place, yeah.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, you can decide, well, how quickly will it demand me to press that when I want to unlock it? So you could say, well, stay unlocked for, I don't know, a couple of minutes or something like that. But after that, just have that to access the phone. And as simple as that.

CAROLE THERIAULT. And there's two— there's— okay, there's two big reasons I can think of why this is a good idea.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay.

CAROLE THERIAULT. One, if your phone then is set to lock, say, every 5 minutes, so you do your thing and then as soon as you're not playing with it for 5 minutes, it'll then automatically lock. You save battery life, which is good.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yep.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay. Okay.

CAROLE THERIAULT. And two, as you pointed out, if ever you left your phone somewhere with all your stuff in it, right? Like, do you bank on your phone?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Oh yeah. Oh no, I full on have like, I full on have a list in my app of various passwords that I cannot remember.

CAROLE THERIAULT. We're going to— we're going to censor out the name of the app.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I can just— I can't see you guys, but I can just feel your—

CAROLE THERIAULT. No, I know we're not. I think this is— I think this is actually a brilliant show because I think sometimes we live in our own swamp too much and we don't remember what it's like being in the outside world.

GRAHAM CLULEY. That's absolutely true.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Because my jaw's on the floor.

GRAHAM CLULEY. We live in a weird world and we lose touch with what the typical users are like.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah.

CAROLE THERIAULT. So is it set up now on your phone?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes. It also made me put a passcode in. Oh.

GRAHAM CLULEY. I think that's because if you turn your phone entirely off and on again, I think it says, okay, to use Touch ID again in future, you're going to need a passcode. So you're probably feeling quite frustrated with us now because we've given you something extra.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. So we're just gonna, we're gonna turn my phone off and then—

GRAHAM CLULEY. Don't forget the passcode. Don't worry.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I used literal easiest password.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay, so 1, 2, 3, 4.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. No, no, no, no, no. I used, uh, baby. Oh God.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay, well—

CLARE BLACKWOOD. But that shouldn't matter, 'cause I used my thumbprint.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, baby steps, right, Crow? Baby steps. That's what we're talking about here, because we have made progress.

CAROLE THERIAULT. We have made progress.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Previously, Clare didn't have anything, any form of authentication. And now she's got fingerprint ID and she's got a passcode. And maybe at some later date, you may decide that you won't have such a simple passcode. Maybe you'll have a passphrase or a word. So it's not just numeric. You might have something alphanumeric as well. But, you know, let's, let's not go crazy because you must think we're weirdos, right? You must just think this is such an encumbrance.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I don't think you're weirdos at all. I think you are vastly more aware of the implications of all of the things that I am not doing than I am. Whereas I have a bare minimum understanding of the fact that, you know, the government is stealing all of our data, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. I've just kind of sunk into the swamp of like, I don't care, which is a terrible quagmire to be in. And I realize I'm probably giving my— well, I know I'm giving my data to China every time I open TikTok.

CAROLE THERIAULT. But it's one of those things where it's kind of like you don't even know where to start to do anything. So it's kind of just too much ostrich, kind of put your head in the sand.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. It's too much. And I also— this sounds so bad, but it's kind of one of those like, well, I can't see the implications, so I can't see how it affects me directly, so why should I care? Yeah.

GRAHAM CLULEY. So I mean, in the case specifically of your phone and locking your phone, I guess the concern is that you'll have many apps on there. You've said that you're active on social media. Someone could take your phone could post in your name, which could be damaging to your reputation. They could read your emails. They could see private communications. They could steal your photos. There's opportunities for identity theft out there, and there are bad people even in Canada. Not many. Not many in Canada.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. There's like one. Yeah, one. There's a guy who lives in my building, you know?

CAROLE THERIAULT. Steve, right?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Kinda creepy. Yeah, Steve.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Damn Steve.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Damn you, Steve!

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Steve is also one of our cousins, so I hope he listens to this. This one's like, hey.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay, well, I feel like we've done something to help the phone a little bit, but maybe we need to look at a few other things as well, Cora.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. While we have the phone, let me just do a few more things.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay.

CAROLE THERIAULT. So if you grab your phone and if you go to the privacy thing, and what the way I do it is I search on the settings one. So the little gray cog as you went in before settings, and then if you just type in location and then location is under privacy, there's a number of different location names, but you'll see that one. So we can just see the list of apps that know where you are. And if you look at those, some of them are going to make sense, like a map app. That makes total sense. But maybe—

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Ooh, my camera.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, mine is set to never. So it's a really good point. So if you have it on, and Graham, actually, maybe you can confirm or deny this. If you have your location on your camera, is it right that when you forward an image, that information can be Yes, can be stored in the, in the metadata of the picture.

GRAHAM CLULEY. And people have been caught out before. Yes. Now, sometimes when you upload that photograph to a social media site, they might strip that information out of the picture. But there's always the chance that you could forward it or email it or something else.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. How close are we talking? Like how specific of a location? Because I know that sometimes like I'll take a picture and then I'll go home and I'll be like, this was taken in like Simcoe. Like, they don't give the kind of vague town area.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, it would—

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Can it get more specific than that?

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, it'd be able to give your GPS coordinates. Yeah.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Really?

CAROLE THERIAULT. So basically within like—

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, a metre or so.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Wow!

GRAHAM CLULEY. So it could be—

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I didn't know that.

GRAHAM CLULEY. So it could be incredibly precise. I remember when John McAfee, who's like a— How can I explain him to Clare?

CAROLE THERIAULT. I don't know.

GRAHAM CLULEY. He's—

CAROLE THERIAULT. Crazy, cool.

GRAHAM CLULEY. If you think of Charlie Sheen, And how mad Charlie Sheen was.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Oh my god.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, if I have to. So, John McAfee is the industry's version of Charlie Sheen, going completely bonkers.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. So, like, he's insane and does a lot of drugs.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Fantastic.

GRAHAM CLULEY. And has been on the run before for police investigating murder. Oh my god. And so— So, he was on the run at one point, and people posted up a photograph of him. Somewhere in Guatemala or somewhere. And unfortunately, they included this information inside the image, which wasn't visible if you looked at the image. But if you had the right tools, you could extract it from the photograph. So you don't, you don't want that kind of data normally being included in your photos. I suspect most people have got no use for that whatsoever. So that's the kind of thing which you want to turn off. But yeah, a lot of apps will want to know your location, and it might be that they want to know your location because they're tracking you, or maybe they want to give you more precise advertising or advertise depending on where they think you go.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes.

GRAHAM CLULEY. And that's kind of debatable whether you really want that, right?

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, so now let's try contacts. All right, so under privacy again. So it's contacts under privacy. So there you'll have a list of apps. For example, what about your social media sites? Are any of them listed in this list?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Uh, Instagram is off. Actually, I don't have a lot of social media on here. The only thing I'm surprised by is my bank currently has access.

CAROLE THERIAULT. See, that's strange.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Like my RBC Mobile.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, so I don't know specifically why that app would need access to your contacts. Maybe it's in case you want to transfer money to a friend or something like that. Yeah, you can turn it on. I imagine at some point, the app may have requested access to it, maybe to make that process easier.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah. And it's very possible that I was just kind of like, did the millennial thing of just being like, okay, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay. Okay. Okay. And you know, this is an interesting one, I think, because there are many apps. I mean, if you've got well-established apps, generally they won't do this, but sometimes you download games and things like this, which will try and take your contacts and then spam them to try and promote the game and say, hey, Clare's playing this or Clare's doing this. Why don't you join her? And the risk here is that you're not only potentially endangering your own privacy, 'cause you're sharing information with God knows who about who you know, you are also exposing the privacy of the people you love and care for, your friends. So it has an impact on other people too.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, don't be all—

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, I'm not, I'm not afraid.

CAROLE THERIAULT. No, no, no, this is good to know.

GRAHAM CLULEY. I'm not, I'm not.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. So basically what you're saying is if I download an app and it asks, you know, buried in all of the little fine print, it says, I'll get access to your contacts, then it will just have all of their information.

CAROLE THERIAULT. The way I do it is if I download an app, I then, you know, install the app and then I go and check those things under privacy just to see if the app has showed up in any of those lists. And then I make a kind of my own judgment call because I think a lot of us, when we download apps, we just assume the app is going to download itself safely and it's going to have the right things turned on. But sometimes they're cheeky, right? And if they can take something from you and you say, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, fine, fine. That's what I do. Now, that might be a pain, and it depends how often you download apps.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I mean, I download them as necessary. For example, you know, the other day I decided that I wanted to find out what breed my cat was. So I downloaded an app called Cat Scanner.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Cat Skinner?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Cat—

CAROLE THERIAULT. not Skinner.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Cat Scanner. And it just— and you take a picture of your cat and it will just use algorithms to find out what what breed your cat is. So I mean, that so far has not shown up in any of the lists.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Is it doing some kind of facial recognition on cats to work out what— this, if you did that on people, can you imagine the outrage as an app tried to determine what race a person was?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Oh, there are Instagram filters for that.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Are there?

CAROLE THERIAULT. My God.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Oh yeah.

CAROLE THERIAULT. She can teach us about a different world, Graham, too.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. There are Instagram filters for everything.

GRAHAM CLULEY. What kind of cat is it? What's the name of your cat, Clare?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. My cat's name is Gandalf.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Ah.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. He's a 15-pound grey and white monstrosity. Who apparently is primarily a Norwegian forest cat. Ooh. According to Cat Scanner.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Is it pining for the fjords, do you think?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. He's pine— He's not dead yet! He's an ex-cat.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Did I mention she can do accents?

GRAHAM CLULEY. Now, yes, much better than your accents, girl. So—

CLARE BLACKWOOD. She's a professional. I would hope so.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. For my sake. I mean, they're all bastardisations of the actual locations where I'm trying to—

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay. Clare, you've just revealed your cat's name to us is Gandalf, and you've also revealed that you are a fan of Middle-earth and all that that entails.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Without naming any sites, do any of your passwords relate either to your cat's name or to something Tolkienian? Keenish.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. They actually don't.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Um, very good, Clare.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah, now don't praise me yet because actually I have no passwords, so I literally just hand my phone out to strangers on the street. Um, no, I use— generally, without giving anything away, I, I use the same variation. I have like a word.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. And then I'll throw the same numbers after it or the same symbols depending on what the websites ask for. And then generally, if I forget what that password is, then I'll go to my second choice password. I have essentially like 3.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. And you're just kind of putting variations or you're putting like a number on the end or something like that.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yes.

GRAHAM CLULEY. When you have to. I understand.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. And it's the same number.

GRAHAM CLULEY. And then what do you do with it? Do you write them down in a little book or something?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Or some of them. Occasionally, if it's an email that I, or like a password that I just find myself continuously forgetting, I'll like email it to myself.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, right.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Or I have, like I said before, I have a shit folder on my phone and occasionally I'll just put passwords in there, which is terrible. I know.

GRAHAM CLULEY. But most of the time you don't need to write them down, do you? Because you can work them out because you know roughly what it is.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I know roughly what they are, or my phone just kind of stores them.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Right.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, so what we could do, there is a website run by one of our types named Troy Hunt, and he runs a website called Have I Been Pwned, which basically means has anyone ever tried to hack your email address by, for example, hacking a social media site, for instance. So we can go find out and it's free. So if we go to the website, um, have I been pwned?

GRAHAM CLULEY. And so pwned is spelled P-W-N-E-D.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I got it.

GRAHAM CLULEY. N-E-D. You got it?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah, I, I live on the internet, Graham. Okay, I know, but just for our listeners, for our listeners too.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, so haveibeenpwned is what's up, pwned.com. Now Clare, if you're on that website, yes, if you put in one of your email addresses—

CLARE BLACKWOOD. oh, I've been pwned on 11 breach sites. Yeah, and I found one paste I don't know what a paste is.

GRAHAM CLULEY. So a paste is basically when bad guys post up onto a particular site, a site called Pastebin, a whole long list of email addresses and passwords associated with them.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Right.

GRAHAM CLULEY. But the rest of those which are displayed for you there, those are the results of data breaches. So those are all sites. So you can see a list in front of me. I'm looking up and down it right now. You've got Adobe, CafePress, A few sites I've never heard of: MySpace, MyFitnessPal, Tumblr, Ticketfly. These are all sites that have in the past been hacked or suffered a data breach. And so the hackers have your email address and they have associated with it maybe a password, maybe poorly encrypted for your particular account. And the danger is that if someone wanted to get into one of your accounts, they could take that password. And use it not only to get into that site, but to get into other sites. So this is why it's a really good idea to have different passwords for different websites.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Now, but don't freak out too much because I don't know anyone who wouldn't be listed somewhere on this. I mean, this is a list of billions and billions of addresses.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Oh, of course. And, you know, it barely goes a week without hearing that some major company was hacked.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. But what's really cool about this this service is that you can see which ones you might have been affected by, and you might have gone, oh my God, I haven't changed my password for that site since blah blah, I'm gonna do it now.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, and you might not care about someone being able to access your MySpace account or your MyFitnessPal account.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I didn't even know I had a MySpace account.

GRAHAM CLULEY. I know, it's so funny.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, like I've got— yeah, I've got some crap ones here too, you know, sites that I just started, you know, whatever, a little account just to see what was going on and then never paid attention to. So that's normal.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Lots of people—

GRAHAM CLULEY. the danger is, Carole, that sometimes When you're just testing a service, you might not take as much care about your password. So you might have a, oh, I'll just use the same old password again while I'm creating this account.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah.

GRAHAM CLULEY. So one of the things we would love you to do, Clare, is to think about using a password manager, but specifically to have different passwords for different websites. If I was to say one mistake, which I think most people make, it's to reuse the same passwords in different places.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Basically, passwords really, really matter. And we're not just saying that because we have a sponsor. But really, it is an app that you use, and I have it with my browser. So I use it on my computers and I use it within my browser of choice, right? So it sits there in the browser. And all you have to remember, it's like a master password. So let's say your password was, I really love to eat poop, for example. And that was your password. That is the only one that you would remember because that's the key to your diary of passwords, your online diary.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Well, I'm going to have to change all my passwords now because you guessed it immediately.

CAROLE THERIAULT. And what's really cool about password managers is that they work on your phone and on your laptop and on your iPad. And so you basically, as long as you remember your main password, you'll just jump into every app as you are now. Like it'll bypass even like it'll help you get into your bank. So you can throw away your list.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Uh-huh. Now, I assume that using a password manager would be predicated upon the idea that I have to now use either a passcode or a touch thing, because otherwise whoever goes onto my phone can just automatically get into every single one of my apps.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, ideally you would have those set up, but actually, as Carole says, she mentioned this master password idea that the idea of that is there's only one password which you do have to remember. And so no one can access your great big bank vault full of passwords held securely until you've entered that master password or until you've used your Touch ID to unlock the vault.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. So would you yourself know what all of the passwords are that it's generating?

GRAHAM CLULEY. If you ever forget your master password, you're screwed. So that you need to make strong and make sure you can remember it or write it on the, I don't know, a piece of paper and hide it under your mattress. It may sound daunting, but it's worth giving it a try because you might be surprised to find just how easy it is to use one of these things. And it, it really helps you both choose much stronger passwords in the future.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, because it chooses them for you. It just creates them for you and you just say, make it hard, like choose 50 characters, put all kinds of garbage in there.

GRAHAM CLULEY. And they'll be unique. And next time there's a data breach at MySpace or whatever site it is, then you won't have to go scurrying around changing all your other passwords because All of them will be different. It's worth a go.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Interesting.

CAROLE THERIAULT. But you know what? It's been eye-opening for me having this chat with you, Clare, like this, because, you know, we see each other, we have a laugh, but we rarely talk about computers.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Right.

CAROLE THERIAULT. So, but it's eye-opening to me that there's a lot, a lot of people out there that have lives and use the technology, like, and don't know anything about it. Like, I know nothing about my car, right? But I use my car. I know nothing.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. And I also think, I think for people, people of my generation, and, um, and just, you know, even going past generation, I think people who don't work in your industry, we're so used to the idea that like every company is stealing our data just all the time that it just kind of becomes white noise.

CAROLE THERIAULT. But it's, it's white noise until your bank account's emptied.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Or your Twitter's hacked and it's saying, you know, all kinds of—

GRAHAM CLULEY. I think what Clare's saying, correct me if I'm wrong, Clare, is that There's so many of these breaches happening, you kind of give up and you kind of think, "Oh, that's just the way it is. This just happens. What can I do?" Yeah.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. And I think, I don't know, I can only speak for myself and my friends, but I think for the most part, we've been fairly lucky in the sense that I've never heard of— Occasionally, the worst that will happen is somebody will post on their Facebook saying, "Hey, if you get an email from me, it's not me. My email's been hacked. Just ignore it." And that's pretty much the worst that happens to us. And so I think we just kind of, you know, we're also the generation that just kind of scrolls blindly through all of the 5 pages of user manuals and all that kind of stuff.

CAROLE THERIAULT. 99.9% of people do that.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah.

GRAHAM CLULEY. And then just go on to the next TikTok dance.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah, well, exactly. Which I do so well.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh yeah, you did. You rocked it.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Oh no, I looked like a massive white person attempting to do a dance created by 12-year-olds.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Links in the show notes. Links in the show notes, folks.

CAROLE THERIAULT. If you work in a big company, you see new employees all the time, and you also hear about employees that are leaving all the time. Think of the hassle that is for the IT guys who have to get all the passwords sorted out all the accesses for the newbies and then delete all those authentications for leaving employees. Having a solution like LastPass for Enterprise can help. Plus, makes your employees' life a heck of a lot easier because they only need to remember their master password. Want to learn more? Check out lastpass.com/smashing.

GRAHAM CLULEY. If you listen to our show regularly, you'll know that hackers never stop innovating. Immersive Labs gives security professionals practical and gamified content to keep pace with the latest threats. Sign up to get instant access to more than 24 hours of free labs and a new lab to try out each week. Latest being their red and blue team labs on the SaltStack vulnerabilities, which were in the news last week. Go check it out at immersive-labs.com/smashing.

CAROLE THERIAULT. On with the show.

GRAHAM CLULEY. And welcome back. And you join us on our favorite part of the show, the part of the show that we like to call Pick of the Week.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Pick of the Week. Clare, can you say Pick of the Week?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Pick of the Week.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Beautiful.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Pick of the Week is the part of the show where everyone chooses something they like. Could be a funny story, a book that they've read, a TV show, a movie, a record, a podcast, a website, or an app. Whatever they wish. It doesn't have to be security related necessarily.

CAROLE THERIAULT. I don't think I've ever meant this more in my life, but with this guest, it better not be security related. We have drowned her in security.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, poor Clare.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. My Pick of the Week is just a little live reading of all of my passwords.

GRAHAM CLULEY. We'll just put that on the Patreon feed. So, my pick of the week this week is a YouTube channel. It's called Cracking the Cryptic.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.

GRAHAM CLULEY. And this is hosted by a couple of English chaps. Decent gents, of course. Mark Goodliffe and Simon Anthony. They are both record holders for solving crosswords and Sudoku puzzles and things like this. And they have given up their regular jobs to run a cryptic crossword or puzzle channel on YouTube.

CAROLE THERIAULT. They may not have had a choice.

GRAHAM CLULEY. They are— no, no, I think they chucked it in because they thought this is a more fun thing to do than our boring—

CAROLE THERIAULT. My husband would be in heaven if this were his job.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Oh, he would! I loved Cryptic Crosswords because of him.

CAROLE THERIAULT. I once bought him a piece of software that helped you create the floor plan for Cryptic Crosswords. It's very complicated. Who knew? Anyway, sorry, I was taking over there.

GRAHAM CLULEY. This YouTube channel shows you the tips and tricks needed for solving Sudokus as well as cryptic crosswords. And I have included in the show notes a link not only to a fantastic Guardian article all about them and how they've become an internet sensation— they have over 200,000 subscribers— but also a link to a video, a video which is 25 minutes long or so, —And it is showing one of these chaps solving a Sudoku, which only has 2 numbers on its grid and a few rules. It lasts 25 minutes. And at first he's like, "This is impossible. This is a joke. How can I do this?" And over the 25 minutes, he solves it. And after 25 minutes, you will move from saying, "Why would anyone watch this?" to, "Oh my God, this is the most amazing thing I've ever seen on the internet. I am subscribing to this YouTube channel." So it is quite gripping. I have to say it's really good. And I would say I heartily recommend the Crackin' the Cryptic YouTube channel. Go and check out the Miracle Sudoku on YouTube to see that particular one, which I'm emphasising this week. And that is my pick of the week.

CAROLE THERIAULT. That's a good one, Graham. That's fresh.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Thank you very much. I'm going to be checking that out. Okay, Clare, what is your pick of the week? Right.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. So Basically, in this horrifying timeline that we're currently in, I generally want to do nothing more than make people laugh. So, today— because what else can I do? So, today I'm plugging an awesome podcast company called Dumb Dumbs and Dice. They're basically a trio of professional comedians, writers, and actors from Toronto who produce 5 hilarious weekly improvised RPG podcasts with other Toronto-based improvisers and entertainers. What's an improvised RPG podcast? Yeah, so, um, improvised RPG podcast, basically like Dungeons and Dragons is an RPG, role-playing game.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Crow, see, Maria is really into Dungeons and Dragons, so yes. Yeah, yeah.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. So basically they run, um, like, basically if you're interested in Dungeons and Dragons, improv, comedy, you'll probably love their shows. They do one, it's set in the Star Wars universe. They do one set in like the Lovecraftian horror universe. They have one set in like traditional Dungeons and Dragons kind of universe, and it's all with incredible like actors basically making up the story as you go along. And have you done—

CAROLE THERIAULT. have you done some of this?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah. Well, to be blatantly transparent, like, I am actually a cast member on one of the 5 podcasts. Can we—

CAROLE THERIAULT. can we play a snippet of it on the show? Absolutely. Okay, here's what I'm going to do. I will put a snippet of the podcast after the closing music. Cool.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Yeah, it's a show, it's called HP Duncraft. And for people who know RPGs, it's a Pulp Cthulhu campaign. Of course. And it's basically like if Stephen King wrote an entire improvised season of Scooby-Doo, Where Are You? Sounds amazing. It's great. And so basically it's these guys, they're wonderful human beings, they produce really funny, well-edited entertainment. Like a 1930s gangster named Red from Boston.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh my God, can you do a bit of the accent? Can you give us a bit?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Uh, her name is Red. It was Tracy Jones, but I swear to God, like, you don't want to go down that path. Like, she's just here to kick ass. She doesn't like ghosts. I don't want to talk about no fucking ghosts. She's good.

GRAHAM CLULEY. I told you she was good. All the talent went on one side of the family.

CAROLE THERIAULT. What's your pick of the week? My pick of the week is a Netflix miniseries called Into the Night. I loved this program so much. So it starts in Brussels Airport. Okay. An armed man storms on a late night flight to Moscow and demands the flight goes west, west, not east to Moscow, west. And he's got a gun. There's a former military pilot named Sylvie. She's a passenger on the plane, but she finds herself pulled into the cockpit to help because the guy is freaking out. And why west? Well, it turns out the sun has been killing everything in its path. Up we, up we. And the passengers can't get access to Wi-Fi. And this guy with the gun who claims he's from NATO, right? Is he bonkers? Or is there a veritable apocalypse happening?

GRAHAM CLULEY. So he's hijacked the plane. He's saying if the sun touches the plane, the plane, the people on the plane die.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Anything the sun touches is destroyed.

GRAHAM CLULEY. He's racing ahead of the sun. He has to stay in the dark.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, think Speed. Think Snakes on a Plane. Okay, think Airplane without the giggles.

GRAHAM CLULEY. I can't think Speed without thinking of Father Ted and the milk float. That's the best scene ever.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. This is absolutely something that I'm going to check out. This is right up my alley.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Now, now, Clare, I'm gonna— this is the gravy for you, right? So on Netflix— no, no, no, I'm not gonna spoil it.

GRAHAM CLULEY. I mean, because he might be— is it actually happening, or is he just mad?

CAROLE THERIAULT. Or is it gonna— I'm not gonna answer that question. Obviously, I'm a professional. Okay. God. So the— on Netflix, they've dubbed it, but it's a pan-European kind of, you know, airline show. So you've got people from Moscow, and you've got people from Germany and France and England. And it's all dubbed, and they're talking. And then of course, occasionally, you got someone saying, but what did he say? And she goes, well, she says he really wants to go to Moscow. And he goes, aha. But it's all happening in English and you have no— you don't know why. So anyway, it's very, very amusing. So every time that happens, we would have a little swig. And that was a very nice evening of 6 episodes. So it's science fiction and fantasy. That might give you an idea of what might happen or not. And its creator is Jason George. You can find it on Netflix. It's called Into the Night. We loved it.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Try it. Marvelous. Well, what a superb pick of the week, and what fun it has been as well. It has. Having Clare on the show on this splinter episode, unusual, different kind of show from our norm. Clare, I'm sure lots of our listeners would love to follow you online and find out what you're up to. What's the best way for folks to do that?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. So you can follow me on Twitter at @ClareBlackwood. That's it. No i, Graham Cluley, C-L-A-R-E Blackwood.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. Cool. Lose the I.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Fuck the I. And you can follow us on Twitter @SmashingSecurity, no G, Twitter allows to have a G. And we're on Reddit as well, so go and check out the Smashing Security subreddit. And don't forget, if you never want to miss another episode, subscribe in your favorite podcast app such as Apple Podcasts or Spotify or Pocket Casts, and we will automatically appear each week.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Thank you to this week's Smashing Security Sponsors Immersive Labs and LastPass. Their support helps us give you this show for free. But none of this would happen without you loyal listeners. So thank you most of all. Check out smashingsecurity.com for past episodes, sponsorship details, and information on how to get in touch.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Until next week. Cheerio. Bye-bye. Later, dudes.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Dudes, look, I'm being cool because my younger cousins are on.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Wow, girl, you're so cool.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Say bye, Clare. Just—

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Bye. The door creaks open and you see a moderately sized bedroom. You start to hear dripping and your eyes are drawn to the ceiling where a patch of blood is slowly expanding. The dresser at the far end, you hear a slow agonizing creak as the top drawer pushes itself out and then falls clattering to the ground. I would like to close this door, please, Red. We can close it. I close the door. As soon as you do, alarmingly quickly, you just hear the sounds of the drawers just flying out of the dresser and slamming. And then you hear kind of like a— as the entire dresser falls over. Whoever you are, we're not scared of you. You hear a voice from inside that says, please help. I'm inside the dresser. Help. Now I need you to listen to my very explicit instructions here, Adrian. Okay. Please ready your punching fists.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, they're always ready.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Now I'm gonna open the door. Okay. And we're gonna look inside the dresser.

GRAHAM CLULEY. What if we don't? Could we not?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. I need you to be brave for me. Okay. You were always very brave. Okay, okay. So we're gonna open the door and you're gonna look in the dresser and then what? And then if I tell you to, we're gonna punch it.

GRAHAM CLULEY. The dresser? You said I had to be very—

CLARE BLACKWOOD. you said explicit. If there is someone in the dresser—

GRAHAM CLULEY. I'm punching.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. We're gonna punch him. What if it's a ghost?

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, then we're gonna have ourselves a fun time.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Like a party?

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Like a birthday party. Okay, so we'll do some dancing and there will be a cake.

GRAHAM CLULEY. Hopefully the ghost brought it.

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes.

CLARE BLACKWOOD. Okay, I can do this. Okay, I'm gonna open the door now. Okay. I'm gonna open the door. You open the door and the dresser is back upright. All the drawers are back inside, but now it is next to the window and the bed is in a different corner. Of course it is. And the blood is pooling on the floor instead of the ceiling. It's dripping up. Oh, I'm really starting to dislike this day.

CAROLE THERIAULT. That's my cousin Clare, ladies and gentlemen. So if you want to hear more, check out dumbdice.com.

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