This transcript was generated automatically, and has not been manually verified. It may contain errors and omissions. In particular, speaker labels, proper nouns, and attributions may be incorrect. Treat it as a helpful guide rather than a verbatim record — for the real thing, give the episode a listen.

---

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Is this a good thing, Crow? Is this a good thing? Is this good? Is this good? Is this good that this is happening? Is this good? Is this good for the world?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. How many times, man?

---

UNKNOWN. Smashing Security, Episode 226: Cryptocrazies and NFTs with Carole Theriault and Graham Cluley. Hello, hello, and welcome to Smashing Security episode 226. My name's Graham Cluley.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And I'm Carole Theriault.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. And Carole, we're joined this week by returning guest, a regular on the show, it's David McClelland.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I think it's the wonderful David McClelland, actually.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Geez, David McClelland.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Wow, I've got pre-nominals and post-nominals there. Good to hear your voices again.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I hear some ointment can clear that kind of thing up, David. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Uh, so what, what's been going on in your life, David? Busy little bee under lockdown?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Certainly have been a busy bee. I have moved house again, you might say, but it was 3 years since we made the big move into the countryside. We were renting. Just while we decided that we hadn't made a big mistake after all, and we liked the village we had moved into, we decided that we did. So we took the opportunity of lockdown. And here in the UK, stamp duty, this tax you pay when you buy a house, has been relaxed for many people. So we used that as an opportunity to buy a house in our village. And it is lovely, but I will be talking a little bit more about that. Later on in the show.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay, sounds good.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, well, let's say thanks to this week's sponsors: 1Password, KnowBe4, and Skiff. Their support helps us give you this show for free. Now, coming up on today's show, Graham, what do you got?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I'm going to be talking about a motherfucking scam coin.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Ooh, fruity. David, what about you?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Well, I'm going to be talking about how Google is still displaying adverts for these value-added services. Did you hear the rabbit's ears there? Big rabbit's ears.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Ooh, okay. And I'm gonna see if we can figure out what the fuss is with this NFT business. All this and much more coming up on this episode of Smashing Security.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Now, chums, chums, how would you like to earn some automatic money?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I don't know what that means.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Not your regular money. This is money you can earn by not having to do anything. It is simple, cool, automatic money. In fact, that's what it's called. Simple, cool, automatic money. Or you can shorten it, SCAM, also known as scam, because scam is the name of a brand new cryptocurrency.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. You're kidding me.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. No, no, for real. It has emerged in the last week or two. It's been dreamt up by a TikToker, no less. That's where he publicized it. A chap who calls himself Dre. His real name is Andre Lewis. You know, I'm working with devs, I'm working with legal teams, I'm working with businesses and shit. Like, there's a lot going on, man. Like, I've— I'm, I'm a regular motherfucker that just so happened to make a coin, and now I got to make this bitch useful to the world. And I get a chance to make this an educational tool for motherfuckers, so I'm gonna take that chance and I'm gonna make that chance, you feel me? And guess what? Today we gonna burn some motherfuckers' Tokens. You see that $7 trillion supply? Oh, oh, most of that shit gone, player. That shit getting burnt. Burnt. Now, Dre describes himself as a regular motherfucker, and he says—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. just like you, same as you.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I wouldn't say I was a regular one, Carole. You're special. Grade A. I'm not your common or garden motherfucker. I'm sort of your sort of F-list motherfucker. David is a sort of C-list.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Right.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. David's not that far from being invited on, I don't know, not Come Dine with Me, what do they call it? The Skating on Ice show or the Celebrity Come Dancing. I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here. Have you ever been asked, David, to do any of those?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Yes, actually, I have. Not one of those, but certainly another programme which people may have heard of that I'm not going to mention out of fairness, but it may have involved me sitting on a chair for a good part of the programme. It never came off in the end. Maybe COVID got in the way.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. But yeah, sitting on a chair.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. It sounds like riveting television. Someone sitting on a chair.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I know.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Wow.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Sorry we missed that. Anyway, Dre, he says that he came up with this thing he calls SCAM, the Simple Call Automatic Money cryptocurrency. He says he brought it up as a joke. He was poking fun at what he called other shitcoins. Which are cryptocurrencies which aren't made out of poop. They are pump and, well, maybe appropriately, dump schemes quite often, where the price is overinflated and sort of hyped up to high heaven. And then of course people get out and make a lot of money, and other people are probably making a loss. So he got fed up with all of those, and so just as a joke, he created this cryptocurrency called SCAM.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, sounds like a brilliant idea so far. What happened next?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, obviously there was a potential side effect, which was if anyone also found the joke funny and bought some scam coins, right, he might make himself some money on the side because he owned about 10% of all the scam coins in existence.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. So his view is win-win, have a giggle, maybe make a bit of wonga.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. And he felt he wasn't doing anything wrong because he's been quite upfront. He said, look, I'm not trying to scam people, I'm being very open and transparent, I'm not tricking you by making any promises.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I mean, it's fucking called scam.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, it's So he's made no promises, so you haven't been tricked effectively. Now, he minted 10 trillion coins.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. 10 trillion?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. 10 trillion.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Quite a lot. I know a little bit about cryptocurrencies. I've done a bit of work on those this year, kind of researching and writing about them. But that's an awful lot of coinage, I think.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. He reckons it cost him about $400 to do it. So there are some services online where you can basically sort of enter your details and press some buttons, and out the other end, comes a new cryptocurrency. And he told some of his mates about it, and he began to promote it on his TikTok channel. And Carole, to answer your question, what happened next?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. Yeah.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, the scam cryptocurrency zoomed up to a market capitalisation of $70 million.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Whoa.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Shut up.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Now—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Did he cash out then, or did he—

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, no, he has not cashed out, and he says—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. He says he's not going to cash out. This ain't no fucking rug pull, my nigga. I make the rug and I'll lock that bitch away. I'll lock that bitch away. He claims not even to know how to sell cryptocurrency. And I think— I don't know, there's a part of me which thinks that's nonsense. But then I watch some of his videos and I think I'm just amazed he knew how to upload a video to TikTok. Anyway, since reaching $70 million, it then slumped to $7 million, $5 million, and it's now currently less than $2 million market capitalization. And remember, that is the—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. That's still not chump change though.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. No, no. But remember, that's $2 million for 10 trillion coins.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, it cost him $400 or whatever.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Absolutely. Absolutely.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. So it's a good return.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. That's what I'm saying. Nice ROI.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. And it got up to $70 million, you know, despite him admitting the coin had no use whatsoever. There was no way you could use it to buy anything other than, I guess, other cryptocurrency. All you can do with it is buy it or sell it, and that's it.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. That still sounds like a good number of proper— again, Big Rabbit says proper cryptocurrencies. And I guess that's his point.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes, that's it. He feels like he's making the point that these sort of things can happen. He's been amazed about the response. And there is a community of scam fans now. Which has emerged. They call themselves the Scammerly. I like that.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And I'll give them that.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. They've created a Discord channel. There's more than 2,000 members all chatting away about this scam cryptocurrency. They've got a fancy website you can go to called scammerly.io. We can read more about them and see some videos by the creator. But there's been some unfortunate side effects because, of course, with the zooming up and then the plummet, some people aren't terribly happy. They kind of expected the price to continue going up. And apparently, according to Dre, well, he's been speaking to the guys at Motherboard and he says, well, I'll just quote what he says. So imagine this is him. Okay. At one point, I started getting calls from relatives because motherfuckers tried to dox me and harass my family. I made this as a joke. No one told you to buy this shit. It's called scam, you stupid motherfucker. I went on Twitter to say I'm not taking disrespect from motherfuckers with no anime pictures and no 8-bit fucking profile pictures because the coin tanked at some point. I didn't do anything. I didn't tell anyone to buy anything.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Yeah, fair enough.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So he's not happy with people's response. He thinks he's been quite open.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I think his expletives help his honesty a bit.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Do you?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I don't know. I feel like I bought all that.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. It's authentic, Carole Theriault.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Exactly. It's a really good PR scam.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. He's extremely authentic on his TikTok channel, if you fancy that. There's an awful lot more of that kind of thing going on.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I don't even know what that is.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Now, you may think scam isn't to be taken seriously because— and most people, I suspect, have bought it as a bit of a laugh. But potentially they could lose money. You know, they could lose a lot of money if they got in when it was high and went low. And there have been cryptocurrencies in the past. I don't know a lot about cryptocurrencies, but there was this thing, dogecoin, wasn't there?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Yes, there certainly was.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Which was started as a bit of a joke, like 7 or 8 years ago. It's the one with the dog picture. And it now has a market value of about $51 billion.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. That's disgusting.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Which is bigger than companies like Delta Airlines or Peloton, and even Elon Musk has tweeted— well, I say even Elon Musk has tweeted about Dogecoin.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. You such a bromance for that guy.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I really don't, girl.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, you do. You talk about him all the time. But you know, like, when not in the schoolyard, it's like you always pick on the girl that you actually secretly fancy. Elon is your lady.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I'm not picking on Elon. I'm not picking on him. So, um, Dre now says, look, I'm just a regular motherfucker. But he says this is the FUBU of crypto.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. What? Excuse me?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. This is the FUBU of crypto.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Easy for him to say. What's FUBU?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Are you not familiar with FUBU?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. No.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay, so it means for us, by us. I think it's like hip-hop apparel.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Apparel, like clothing?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes, yes, clothing. Yes. But if you're in the crypto gang, then you would use words like that.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Much clearer. Much clearer. Thank you.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Anyway, he says he hopes that some good will come come of this. Maybe he will educate people about it, and maybe actually it will become a real cryptocurrency. But I somehow find it rather— $70 million, I'm just shocked.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. No, well, $7 million now. It just, you know, it's like a roller coaster, these things.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, less than $2 million.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Anyone who says, I thought it would continue going up, doesn't understand finances very much, I think.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Isn't that the definition of cryptocurrency and most of its investors? People just see a graph going northeast and they think, yes, I like the look of that. I'll jump on that and hope it carries on going in that direction.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. I have a confession to make because early this year I was commissioned to write a story for Metro newspaper on cryptocurrencies, a kind of zero to hero. And while I'd spoken and researched and understood a bit about the underlying blockchain technology and why many businesses and why many financial institutions get quite excited about that, I kind of steered away from the actual cryptocurrency bit that goes on top. But I went down deep, spoke to a few people from cryptocurrency exchanges, and as part of that, I said, you know what, I'm going to invest, gamble, invest £50, £50, just so that I've been through the process and I see where it takes me. And one of the cryptocurrencies that I invested in was Dogecoin.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, really?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Funnily enough, yes, when it was about 3p per coin. Now it's riding high at about 45p or something like that, thanks to Elon Musk and a rabid community of Dogecoiners. I'm not sure what they call themselves, but this is a cryptocurrency that is often used to tip content creators online. Yes, it started off as a joke, but actually it's found its community, it's found its purpose. And, you know, many people speak very, very strongly. It's a badge of honor. Same with many of the other cryptocurrencies as well. And in fact, I'm looking right now at another cryptocurrency. You mentioned the scam token. There is here The anti-scam token, which has risen in price over the last week by 35.6%.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Jesus.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. I haven't invested into that one, I should say.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Is this how you bought your new house?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Oh, I wish I'd have invested 10 years ago. No, no, I don't. I don't. No, certainly not. Certainly not. But you're right. There's a lot of charts going northeast, particularly at the moment. There is this real rise in many of the main cryptocurrencies, whether it's bitcoin, which everyone thinks of, but some of the others, Ethereum and whatever is well. It's a really interesting space to be watching, but I value my money. And going back to the story I wrote two or three months ago, I can't be seen to give financial advice, certainly not in the pages of the newspaper. And thankfully, the Financial Conduct Authority came out with a do not invest in cryptocurrencies unless you are prepared to lose all of your money. It is very much a house of cards, was, was their take. So look, I'm not going to put a downer on people who do choose to do this. I know many people who do, and it does seem to be this kind of binary I think people are either very evangelical about cryptocurrencies or quite the opposite. People rarely sit in the middle, and I am kind of sitting in the middle, and I'm seeing people doing both, thinking, well, you know what, I'm just going to watch it and be interested and see where it goes, like a lot of other people. Meanwhile, I have to say, my £50 has been quite a fun little gamble over the last few months.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So have you sold any of your cryptocurrency yet, or have you kept the investment?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, he just moved house, Graham.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. No. So I'm not going to lie. I did sell my Dogecoin and bought a a stablecoin. You mentioned all these different types of currencies. You've got the stablecoins like Litecoin, then you've got the shitcoins, which are the rubbish ones. These are technical terms in cryptoland. So yeah, I did ditch the Doge and bought some Litecoin instead, which has performed not particularly well.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So David, what have you got for us this week?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. So I'm going to take you on a little journey into my past. So many years ago, my lovely lady wife and I got married, 13 years ago to be exact. It was our wedding anniversary. Thank you very much. A couple of weeks ago, and I bought her a pair of shoelaces as our lace anniversary gift.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Classy.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. We never buy each other serious gifts. I think for our first anniversary, I bought her a ream of A4 paper. Life is too short to buy serious gifts all the time. Anyway, so a decision was made at the time that she would double barrel her surname so that she would keep her married name and her maiden name together. So Kerry Barrett-McLellan. The hyphen isn't part of the double barrel, that's just the hyphen. Anyway, one or two, just for absolute clarity, but one or two things happened that helped us to realise that it wasn't a great idea. First of all, it turns out that many online forms don't like surnames that are that long. They often cap at 12 or 16 characters or something. So on some corners of the internet, on lots of things through the post, she was Kerry Barrett McClellan. Not great, really. And then the other thing, a more personal thing, was our delightful children came along and we made the decision that they would take my surname, and Kerry realized that she didn't want to have a different surname to her children. So Kerry embarked on this process of changing her name, and in the UK, in many other countries, this is known as deed poll. Now, deed poll is not something you do every day, so where do you go to find out how to do it? The internet. Yeah, exactly, you hit Google, of course. So I don't know, she typed in deed poll England or something like that, and you know what people tend to do is look for the first official-looking result. and, you know, we do this for all kinds of things, don't we? Passport applications, driving licenses, travel visas, the sorts of things you don't do every day. Search it on the internet, look for an official-looking source. That's exactly what Kerry did, and the site, so she tells me, looked very genuine. And she entered in her personal details, paid a fee that she thought was for this legitimate government service. And to be fair, a few days later— and I looked at it it earlier today, she got an official-looking certificate back through the post, and it looks official at first glance, I guess. And you know, that was it until last year when I was researching a story for BBC Rip Off Britain, currently on BBC One, 9:15 till 10 AM, into middlemen— sorry, am I allowed to plug? I don't know— into middlemen service companies that advertise strategically on Google to help process people's applications. And this is again driving license address changes, ESTA applications if you're traveling to the US. But none of these services are official, and they charge a really healthy fee on top. So I dived into our family's filing and took another look at the certificate that Kerry got back. Right, it wasn't official at all. You know, it had a watermark on it with the name of the website that it came from. And for the type of deed poll that she had been through, an unenrolled one for those who know the process, there isn't an official document as such at all. She had been duped. Now, this was, you know, 8 or 9 years ago or something, but she'd been duped into using a third-party service company that it turns out did little more than run some paper— admittedly, it was kind of posh parchment paper— through a laser printer and then post it back to us. And it applied a very, very healthy fee for the privilege. Wasn't official. The piece of paper we received was no more lawful or legitimate than if we'd followed a template and printed it out ourselves.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So they hadn't even taken her details and filled in the real form?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Oh no. So they had an online form that literally chucked it into this template that they then printed off. So there was no processing for them to go through. They just copied and pasted into this bit of paper and sent it back and charged a good bit of money for it at the time. Now, the thing is, is that these sites aren't necessarily illegal to the letter of the law because they are providing a service of sorts, so they claim. Now, they have to make it clear that they aren't an official government service, and there have been various clampdowns on this in the past. And like I say, I looked over this a few months ago, and I have to say, I looked at a good number of these and they are very, very clever in how they word their disclaimers, how they mimic the look and feel of the official websites, you know, close enough so that they can get away with it, but they don't say that they are. And I can understand how the unwary could easily be duped and unwittingly hand over lots of cash for something that might be free, like in our Deedpoll case, or cost a lot less, let alone the whole thing of harvesting people's personal details. But the question is, question is Yes. Why am I seeing these in the first place? Surely Google should be weeding them out, realizing that if I'm searching for official government services, the only official government websites, that only those official sites should appear at the top of the results. And you would like to think that, wouldn't you? And thanks to pressure by various places, this time last year the Big G introduced a new government services policy that said very clearly that it would no longer allow these kind of ads. And guess what?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. It's still there.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. It's made not the blindest bit of difference. I was looking at these back in, uh, November last year. Uh, the BBC— I'm looking at the BBC story that dropped a day or so ago, uh, Chris Fox, um, and he said that the BBC has been looking month by month, doing a set number of searches to see how many of these government and official delegated services ads appear at the top of the results. And basically they're still there despite Google making a big noise last year of saying it weeds out billions of these and uses artificial intelligence and they're not allowed to serve these adverts anymore. They still are, which is so incredibly frustrating.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So these aren't appearing at the top of the search results because of some SEO wizardry by the people who run these websites, but actually just because they're simply giving money to Google.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Exactly.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. They paid Google to show up there.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Google is making money out of this. Exactly that, which is, which is another angle on the frustration here. You know, is it in Google's interests to curtail some of these, I'm sure very well-paid, adverts? And I don't know that it is. So on the one hand, Google's saying, yeah, we're stopping billions of these every year. And on the other hand, thank you very much. We'll have some money for that click, please.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I'm not really surprised by this, just even based on YouTube ads that will show up Some of them are astounding, you know, they're astounding get-rich-quick schemes and diet stuff and all kinds of nastiness. And it doesn't seem to be any vetting, you know, like standard authority.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. No.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Other than itself.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, goodness knows that someone in a position of authority should be judge and jury about what happens in their homes or whatever. But it's the same on social media platforms as well. It's incredibly frustrating, you know. Anyway, so there seems to be little that we can do about it. And it's something that even a supposedly tech-savvy household can fall foul of, albeit in far more innocent times.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And I'm also surprised that the ad industry isn't kicking up a fuss about this because it's really dinging the reputation of people even having any faith in ads at all. When you were on television, you'd have your own national authority that was helping guide the ads.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. And in the UK, you've got the ASA, the Advertising Standards Agency.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, Advertising Standards So you can report things to them and they can vet content that is allowed to be displayed there, but no one's doing that here on digital.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I saw an advert which upset me the other day on the TV. Have you seen this advert with Albert Einstein in the bath? And he goes, "Hello, I'm Albert Einstein and I want to tell you to install smart meters." And I want to know how—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Deepfake land.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, I want to know how that— even if they had the permission of the estate of Albert Einstein, How do they get that past the advertising standards people? Because he's not Albert Einstein.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Who knows, Graham? Maybe after you pass, we could maybe use you to advertise pants or something. Right?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Anyway, anyway, I think something should be done about it. And I hope the powers that be are listening and will rap the knuckles of Google.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. The middle-aged white man has spoken, people.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Which one of us are you referring to then?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Sorry, the over the—

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Over middle age. Carole, cheeky bugger. What have you got for us this week?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, we're talking NFTs. Now, David, I assume you're gonna— you know everything about NFTs.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. I know what they stand for, and they've certainly been top of the agenda over the last few weeks, haven't they?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Exactly. Okay, so please chip in at any time because I've just started scratching the surface of this.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. All I know is it stands for non-fungible or fungible token.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. What does fungible mean, Graham Cluley?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I don't know. And I— Well, I'm not surprised. Are you going to explain all of this to me? Because I'm going to explain it to you. I need help.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Right.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, good. So non-fungible token. Okay. And it doesn't help much because that's not even a word that's been really in fashion recently, but now it's back with a surge. So first, fungible refers to something that can be interchanged, like rice or dollars or bitcoin. So I can trade one for another and it doesn't matter. You're not better or worse off if we trade equal amounts of each. So non-fungible means something that exists that can't effectively be duplicated, like a painting, right? You may have an original art piece that's say worth $50,000 and you can get a print of that same work for a fraction of the price, but there's one original and there's countless copies.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Or I could say the Himalayas, right? I could say I own the Himalayas, You can't make a copy of the Himalayas. Sure.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Yeah.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. Oh yeah. Obviously just for the, yes. Just to be clear.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I thought you could take a picture of the Himalayas and then you don't own that. Right.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. Right.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. So a non-fungible token is a kind of like an identification of ownership of something original in the digital or even physical realm, like a digital stamp of ownership. Would you say that's fair, David? I'm just checking in with the expert.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Yeah. No, that, that, that's fair enough for me.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, cool. Now, most NFTs, non-fungible tokens, are part of the Ethereum blockchain, okay? Same as bitcoin, but Ethereum is another one, another cryptocurrency. Though others are getting on the bandwagon, and why not? 'Cause as you'll see, there is a lot of wonga that can be made here with these NFTs. And Graham, coming to your story, think about it in terms of this, 'cause it's insane. So Ethereum is a platform with its own digital cryptocurrency like bitcoin, but its blockchain also supports these non-fungible tokens, these NFTs. And whoever has the NFT certificate in their digital possession is considered the rightful owner of this NFT item.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Of the Himalayas or of a work of art or something. Yes. Right.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And the way the sites work is much like eBay, right? So they can be bought auction style. There's platforms like OpenSea and Mintable and Rarible, and this is where you do NFT trades. And then you can either bid on items as you would like an internet auction, or some will have a set fee. Okay. So you might say, you just give me this and you can have this.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. But prices in the auction sphere can hike to dizzying heights. And ironically, which is interesting because eBay is now reportedly looking at how it can implement NFT auctions. So, so NFTs seem to be really in the creative digital space at the moment. So like original pieces of music, a painting, a cool software experiment, even a tweet. So founder of Twitter, Jack Dorsey, sold his very first tweet as an NFT earlier this year.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Hang on, hang on. Roll back a moment. I can understand why you could have— so you paint, Carole. I could understand why you could have an NFT proving that I have ownership of one of your paintings. How can I buy a tweet? How can I buy someone else's tweet?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Because you will have the NFT certificate sold to you by the original owner, Jack Dorsey, who created it, and he will sell it to you for money.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Why would I want that?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, because you might be able to sell it on again as the cost goes up. So if you bought it for 3 Ethereum coins, whatever it's called, David, what's, what's the point of owning a Jack Dorsey tweet?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. It's still there on Twitter, right?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, someone thought, someone thought it was a pretty good idea because they bought it for $3 million.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Yeah, and I think that was for charity, if memory serves.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes, yes, um, he did give the money to charity.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Yeah, um, and it's a piece of history, Graham. I'm just going to play the counter-argument to the, to the line that you're going through. It, it is a piece of history, and I think Wyatt did a really interesting piece only, only a few weeks ago about how Some of the common memes that we see, you know, those little photos of fist bump kid and the girl standing in front of the burning down house, all of those images that were taken out of context and then develop their own life online, the original of those images, there is an agency, a brokerage who's getting in touch with the original people who are in those images and offering to sell the original images to people, general people on the internet, who want to own the original one of those meme images, which I think is really interesting. Yes, they can be copied because it's digital, anyone can copy it. But to have a digital certificate, again, that says, actually, I own the original one of these, there is a value of some sort, is the argument with this. And I think that's the whole thing about crypto in the first place. Is there any value in it? Well, if people want to buy it and exchange it, then yes, there is a value to it.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Because I saw this about the girl, it was a young girl sat and stood in front of a burning down house. That's the one, sort of evil looking, a place. And I heard that she's now grown up and is putting herself through college and she's made, is it half a million dollars?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. I can't remember now, but it was certainly, there's a substantial amount of money that many of these, you know, pioneers or unwitting pioneers of early internet culture are now able to command for the original image.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And also bona fide serious artists, like artists like Mike Winkelmann, right? He's known as Beeple. He put his painting, The First 5,000 Days, that's what it's called, as an NFT artwork. Work, right, uh, to be offered up by a major auction house, and it sold for a record— get this— $69 million on March 11th this year. But the star of the show are CryptoPunks. Okay, these are by Larva Labs. Now, CryptoPunks— let me just give you a link in the show notes, you guys can take a look at this while I'm talking because this will kind of blow your mind, I think.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, I say I'm on some sort of site with some sort of 8-bit style art.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Right? Okay. So they're 24 by 24 pixel art images generated algorithmically. Okay. And they're mostly punkish-y characters. And there are a few that are considered very rare. Okay. I wouldn't say any of them are remarkable works of art, in my opinion. But there you are. It is cutting edge, as you say, David. You know, it's right at the cusp of something crazy weird. So Larva Labs is run by Matt Hall and John Watkinson. And as you can see, this has become a hot commodity among the crypto's nouveau riche.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh my goodness.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. There are 10,000 unique collectible characters with proof of ownership stored on the Ethereum blockchain. And have you seen some of the prices there that they've gone for?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. I have.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Tell us. Tell us what you can get for a 24x24 pixel art image.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So it's just a little image of a guy with a flat cap and a pipe. But to you, $7.5 million.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, that's the biggest.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. That was the highest. It says total value of all sales lifetime. Yep. Tell us. Half a billion. More than half a billion dollars. $590 million. Yep.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. So no surprise there's a Twitter bot dedicated to tracking CryptoPunks transactions. Even the New York Times— did you read that, David? So even the New York Times, as an experiment, put up a picture, an NFT picture of a New York Times article for auction on the Ethereum platform. Someone paid $560,000 for it, a picture of the column by journalist Kevin Roose. And like 'Why would anyone spend the price of a high-end Lamborghini on a picture of my words?' he asked. But like, as you say, some NFT collectors believe that owning early prominent crypto tokens will eventually be like owning rare first edition books or priceless paintings. Even Johnny Depp, Graham.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Carole, there is no— the words 'even Johnny Depp' don't actually mean anything, do they? Because there's no surprise that Johnny Depp has done anything at all. So even Johnny Depp doesn't mean anything.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. He is selling a poem he penned.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Of course, it's Johnny Depp.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. For his ex-fiancée, Winona Ryder, as an NFT for charity. So there you go. Now, artists, of course, are saying this is amazing. Like, there was one artist who has recently sold a portrait of Kobe Bryant for almost $30,000 and said, before now, I couldn't say that I I could put food on my table through my work. But there are problems, and Graham, you touched on these in your story. So one is accounts can get stolen, right? The platform where you store your NFT account could get hacked, for example, and you might have to say sayonara to your ownership or to your little dosh that's being stored in there.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Are there any limits as to what you could create an NFT for? Because I was making myself some breakfast this morning and I cut my finger a little bit with a knife, Could I create an NFT for that scar on my finger?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Ah, but is it art, Graham? Is it art?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh yes. Even Johnny Depp would cut his finger for art. I think I could be, even Graham Cluley. Yes.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. If you took a picture of that and it existed somewhere online, then in theory that is a tradable asset and you could mint an NFT. I'm actually not sure if that's the correct terminology. It might be. And then sell that. And, you know, somebody may well want to buy a digital a little picture of that scar on your finger.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I remember this artwork, which was basically a banana duct taped to a wall, literally. And it was a— you'd have to replace the banana in order to keep the artwork. And I think it did sell for some ridiculous— I was just looking to see if it was NFT, but I couldn't find it.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Is this a good thing, Crow? Is this a good thing? Is this good? Is this good? Is this good that this is happening? Is this good? Is this good for the world?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. How many times, man? Not good for the world, actually. Very, very bad for Mother World because it takes a chunk of energy to mine this stuff and to keep these blockchains going.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Does. And what I would say from the little that I have picked up over the last few months on this is that there are moves to change that. And while bitcoin is like the Facebook of the crypto world and it is very, very resource hungry, there are some newer technologies, and indeed Ethereum is looking at moving over to that, rather than being kind of mining-based, are stake-based, and they're far more efficient. I think this is a good thing. I think that as, as with many new technologies, that there's a reason why they've kind of risen to the top right now. And with the rising price of other cryptocurrencies, bitcoin and so on, that's created a bit of a gold rush here in the NFT space. And also the fact that many people have been in lockdown for the last 12 or longer months. And, you know, this is a way of people making money, of, you know, possibly creating a new business. So I think that's contributed to it as well. But as with many new technologies, there will be all of these heightened expectations over the, you know, the initial wave of it, and then we'll come to a bit of a trough of disillusionment. But then there will be some real use cases that come up. And, you know, it'll be in the longer term where I think we will start to see technologies like NFT, or technology implementations like NFTs, actually have some value. But right now, it's a bit of a blunderbuss scattergun approach while we try and work out what the right application for this technology is. So I'm kind of optimistic, even if the current phase is a bit of a bubble. I think that there is some potential value and utility of this in the longer term.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. It's kind of cool for artists though. Like, imagine you've written a song, Klu, and then before you tell anyone about the song, make it an NFT work or available via that medium, and then you can talk to publishers or anything. You can talk to anyone about it and they can, you can, they can buy it from that platform.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So ownership is there always. Why not a podcast?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Why not a podcast?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Exactly. You know, we store more personal information on our devices than we do in our homes. Where do you go online when you want to write or share something privately? Skiff is the first collaboration platform built for privacy privacy from the ground up. Every document, note, and idea you write is end-to-end encrypted and completely private. Only you and your trusted collaborators can see what you've created. Unlike Google Docs, Evernote, or Notion, no one else, not even Skiff, ever has access. Skiff is offering listeners of Smashing Security early access. Sign up for Skiff's beta at skiff.org/smashing. That's S-K-I-F-F. Smashingsecurity.org.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. So what's a con game? It's a fraud that works by getting the victim to misplace their confidence in the con artist. In the world of security, we call confidence tricks social engineering. And as our sponsors KnowBe4 can tell you, human error is how most organizations get compromised. Where there's human contact, there can be con games. Games. It's important to build the kind of security culture in which your employees are enabled to make smart security decisions, and to do that, they need new-school security awareness training. KnowBe4, the provider of the world's largest security awareness and simulated phishing platform. See how your security culture stacks up against KnowBe4's free phishing test. Get it now at knowbe4.com/freetest. That's K-N-O-W-B-E-4. B-E and the number 4 dot com slash free test. Think of KnowBe4 for your security training.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Introduce your family to better online security and safer browsing habits with 1Password. 1Password doesn't just make it easy and safe to share passwords with your loved ones, you can also save logins, documents, credit cards, and more. Sharing's made simple. Keep personal logins private and easily share access to what they need. And you can recover 1Password access for family members so they never get locked out. Find out more and try 1Password for free for 14 days at 1password.com. And welcome back. Can you join us on our favorite part of the show, the part of the show that we like to call Pick of the Week?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Pick of the Week.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Pick of the Week is the part of the show where everyone chooses anything like. Could be a funny story, a book that they've read, a TV show, a movie, a record, a podcast, a website, or an app. Whatever they wish. Doesn't have to be security-related necessarily.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Better not be.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, my pick of the week this week is not security-related, but I am a big fan of subtitles. If I'm watching a TV program, even if it is in English, even if I've got the sound turned up, maybe it's my age. No, I've always been doing this. I will turn the subtitles on because I get more of the plot. I enjoy reading. It's like, oh, so that's how you say, you know, I just like to turn on subtitles.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. I do the same thing.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Great.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. So, yeah.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So it's not that we're old fogies.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. No.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Wouldn't it be great if we could get live subtitles on anything that we're doing on a computer? Oh. Ahaha, you now can. Because if you're using the Chrome browser, which isn't the browser I normally use, but I've used it for this experiment. There is an option called Live Caption, and they've just introduced it. If you go into Settings and then Accessibility, which is under Advanced Settings on your Chrome browser, you can enable Live Caption, and you will see captions of whatever your browser hears coming out of the browser.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. So this is audio from a podcast or a video, YouTube video, whatever that you're playing through your browser. Not only does that make its way to your headphones or to your speakers or whatever, that also gets sucked up to Googleville and they do some AI machine learning, whatever on that. And then they send back some letters onto your screen.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, I think actually it may actually be happening entirely within the browser. I'm not sure. I'd have to go and read. There's a blog link. You can go and check it out. I'm not a security or privacy guy, so I didn't look at those details. But I tried it out. I tried it out on our podcast. Our last episode of the podcast to see, and it doesn't do a brilliant job, but it does, I mean, considering what it does, it does a fairly reasonable job.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Don't you do this? I do this all the time on YouTube, right? And actually on digital television and stuff, Netflix and all that. Yeah.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, because you get auto-generated captions, you can have them on YouTube.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. So YouTube is a bit clunky, but obviously.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Actually, just to be clear, I'm looking at the T&Cs for this right now, and it does say these captions in Chrome are created on On device, which allows the captions to appear as the content plays without ever having to leave your computer. There's probably a little bit more to delve into there, but it does, at least on first look, seem to be on device. I was concerned. I was concerned about the privacy implications of that, but—

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. It's good that you're keeping an eye on that, David, even if I wasn't on this occasion.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And he's here. Yep.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. I am old enough to remember, I don't know about you, Gretchen, No. Yes, you probably are actually. Ceefax page 888. I remember Philip Schofield in the broom cupboard just before Neighbours came on at half past 5 in the afternoon before my tea was ready. And they would even— he would even do the British Sign Language symbol. I can remember it very, very clearly. And if you want subtitles for Neighbours or whatever it was, Ceefax page 888. And through the magic of teletext, which those in the UK will remember fondly, particularly those who went to BBC Micro at a certain age as well in the '80s, will remember. Yes, it was. It was It was live captions on your screen before any of this Chrome technology was around.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Very cool. Very cool. David, what's your pick of the week?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Well, I may have mentioned that I moved house recently and we, we've bought a house that's about 150 years old. So it's, it's not going anywhere, but it's certainly showing all of the signs of wear and tear that guarantee busy weekends, busy holidays, and virtual bankruptcy for, for time to come. So, I've never been much of a handyman. I'm not going to lie, my skills are digital rather than manual, but I have been trying to do my bit to learn one end of a screwdriver from another. And I found something online while I was Googling how to use a measuring tape or something. And there's a guy called the Gothith Handyman, and he's got a YouTube channel with, you know, loads and loads of videos on there, a good number of subscribers as well. And he's, first of all, First of all, he's a great guy to watch. He's very engaging, clearly knows his stuff. You kind of feel as though you're hanging out with him. He's about the same age as I am. But also, he talks about how to use stuff that as a DIY person you would need to use in a very easygoing, non-patronizing manner that makes it, you know, first of all, very credible, very authoritative, but also very accessible. He's currently renovating a 1920s semi-detached property from the ground up, practically. And so what I've done, and you know, I'm all for supporting online content creators, and you know, some people use Patreon, which is a great platform. This guy's got his own platform. I pay a couple of quid a month for a member zone, so I get some additional videos. But the most value for me is he goes through the cost breakdown of all the different jobs that he's— all the trades that he's getting in, how much it costs to have some windows house fitted, how much it costs to have a shed put up in the bottom of your garden, or to have a new water supply routed into your house. That information is invaluable because I trust that he's not going to be getting ripped off. So if the prices that I'm getting quoted for all the similar work that we're having done at our house are similar to his, then that's an immediate cost saving. So for a couple of quid a month to get some extra content and to follow him on his journey as he, who knows what he's doing, is bringing this house back to its former glory, is great. I've been binge-watching this man's channel while I've been doing my washing up for the last 3 or 4 weeks. I've still got an awfully long way to go, but I do feel as though, you know, I feel more confident with a screwdriver in my hand than ever I did. So, Godfath handyman, Andy Mac— Andy McClelland, pure coincidence is his name. Look him up on YouTube and you'll find lots of interesting—

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. So there I was Googling for myself. And that's brilliant. I'm actually in the process right now of getting new windows, and it's a horrifying experience. So I will definitely check that out. And if you're in the same boat, we can talk and compare stuff if you want. So listeners, that's Gosforth Handyman, G-O-S-F-O-R-T-H Handyman. Just Google that and you'll find his property maintenance channel.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Terrific. Carole, what's your pick of the week?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Right. I was having trouble this week about what do I pick? What do I pick? And then I was looking out the window and I thought, oh, I know what I'll pick because I live in a little town, right, in a city, and I have a smallish garden, but I have a Canadian-sized appetite. To grow a vegetable cornucopia this year, but how? I don't want big heavy planters and I don't want to dig up tons of stuff, but I purchased some foldable felt sacks. Now they're basically like half a cylinder, right? Available mostly in dark colors, a variety of diameters, and you plant your soil directly into it, then your seedlings directly into that. So the roots stay super toasty because it's black and all warm with the sun, and it drains super well because if the whole thing's porous, and if you fill it 3/4 full, your seedlings are protected from harsh winds, and they have handles. You can carry them around, move them around. I am so far— I'm in love with them. Now, uh, Mark Stockley, who was last week's guest host, he said they might rot very quickly. I don't know. We will see. I will inform you at the end of the summer, but until then, check those out. I have a few links to— there's— I don't have a brand. I bought tons of different brands just to check them out, but I have a link about how they work and the pros and cons, and you can check that out.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. So grow bags is your pick of the week?

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Felt grow bags is my pick of the week. You have a problem with that?

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, no, it's just that earlier you were calling me middle-aged. That's all. It's just interesting.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. That's about age, Graham. That's not about—

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. I'm totally going to look those up. Gardening is next summer's project. But, you know, some, some felt grow bags for our Victorian cottage garden. Brilliant.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Exactly. And they fold, right? So at the end of the year, if they're not all rotted like Mark says they might be, you can just dry them out and fold them up, and they don't take a ton of space. So anyway, I'm into these. I'm into these.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. We've had it all, haven't we? We've had punk NFTs, we've had grow bags, subtitles. That just about wraps it up for this week. David, I'm sure lots of our listeners would love to follow you online or find out what you're up to. What's the best way for folks to do that?

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Well, you can follow me on Twitter @DavidMcClelland. Lots of Cs, lots of Ls, and a couple of Rs chucked in for good measure. And currently on BBC One, 9:15 till 10 AM me and a handful of other amazing experts helping people with their consumer gripes.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Brilliant stuff. And you can follow us on Twitter @SmashingSecurity, no G, Twitter doesn't allow us to have a G. And you can also join us on our subreddit. And don't forget to ensure you never miss another episode, follow Smashing Security in your favorite podcast apps, such as Pocket Casts, Overcast, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. And huge thank you to this episode's sponsor, 1Password, Skiff, and KnowBe4, and to our wonderful Patreon community. It's thanks to all of these people that this show's free for all. For episode show notes, sponsorship information, guest lists, and the entire back catalog of 225 episodes, check out smashingsecurity.com.

---

GRAHAM CLULEY. Until next time, cheerio. Bye-bye.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Bye.

---

DAVID MCCLELLAND. Bye-bye-bye.

---

CAROLE THERIAULT. Hey people, Carole Theriault from Smashing Security here. This is just a little thank you to all of you. Last week, Graham kind of said, hey, "Hey, would you guys mind giving us a review sometime?" Quite a few of you did. So, wow. I just want to read out a few favorites from last week. So, one from B. Babeno saying, "Such a clever and funny podcast every week. I'm really looking forward to the next episode and chemistry between the two hosts of the show. Highly recommended. A big and sincere thank you." "to the makers of this brilliant podcast and their guests." Loved receiving that review. So thank you so much, Bia Benno. Other favorite one was addicted. "I listen when going to bed, waking up, odd jobs around the house, whilst I'm working, even around Tesco. Absolutely addicted and always looking forward to it." Thursday. That's from Vic Von 94. High five, Vic, for taking the 60 seconds it needed to do that review, because it means the world. Thank you to everyone that left reviews. They seriously helped. We're gonna try and read a few of our favorites every week, so keep them coming. Buckets of love to you guys. Thank you.

-- TRANSCRIPT ENDS --