Who has been playing video games rather than hunting down criminals? How is a man alleged to have stolen manuscripts of unpublished books from celebrity authors? Which pot contains an elephant? And why has Graham been listening to podcasts about pest control marketing?
All this and much much more is discussed in the latest edition of the "Smashing Security" podcast by computer security veterans Graham Cluley and Carole Theriault.
Visit https://www.smashingsecurity.com/257 to check out this episode’s show notes and episode links.
Follow the show on Twitter at @SmashinSecurity, or on the Smashing Security subreddit, or visit our website for more episodes.
Remember: Follow us on Apple Podcasts, or your favourite podcast app, to catch all of the episodes as they go live. Thanks for listening!
Warning: This podcast may contain nuts, adult themes, and rude language.
Theme tune: "Vinyl Memories" by Mikael Manvelyan.
Assorted sound effects: AudioBlocks.
Sponsored By:
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Links:
- Pokémon Go: Police fired for chasing Snorlax instead of robbers — BBC News.
- Pokémon Go-Playing LAPD Officers Fired For Ignoring Robbery — Kotaku.
- Court of appeal documents (PDF).
- The Mysterious Figure Stealing Books Before Their Release — Vulture.
- FBI Arrests Man Accused of Stealing Unpublished Book Manuscripts — The New York Times.
- ViacomCBS security group 'crucial' for FBI manuscript theft investigation, says Karp — The Bookseller.
- The Spine Collector: Man arrested for using fake email addresses to steal hundreds of unpublished manuscripts — Hot for Security.
- Pest Control Marketing Live! — YouTube.
- Pest Control Marketing Podcast.
- Pest Control Marketing Jingles.
- Think with Pinker — BBC Radio 4.
- Smashing Security merchandise (t-shirts, mugs, stickers and stuff
Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
Transcript +
This transcript was generated automatically, and has not been manually verified. It may contain errors and omissions. In particular, speaker labels, proper nouns, and attributions may be incorrect. Treat it as a helpful guide rather than a verbatim record — for the real thing, give the episode a listen.
CAROLE THERIAULT. You know, it just doesn't work. You got writer's block, basically. Right? There's maybe there's no book in there, Graham. Maybe there's no book in there.
GRAHAM CLULEY. What? No book in me?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. Do you think there's a book in you?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, you're probably right.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Some people say there's a book in everyone. I don't think I agree.
UNKNOWN. Smashing Security, Episode 257. Pokémon Hunting Cops and the Spine Collector Scammer with Carole Theriault and Graham Cluley. Hello, hello, and welcome to Smashing Security, Episode 257. My name's Graham Cluley.
CAROLE THERIAULT. And my name's Carole Theriault, and this is the first show of 2022. You should say that.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, yeah, let you say that.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, well, first time ever, eh?
GRAHAM CLULEY. We're back. We're back. Did you miss us, folks? Did you miss us?
CAROLE THERIAULT. I didn't miss you much, Graham, but I missed you listeners.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Ah, listeners plural. Wonderful. And it's just you and me, isn't it, Carole? No special guest this week and for a very, very good reason.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Can I tell people how you're busy, Carole?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Not really.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, so obviously if we have a guest on, it requires a little bit more work, the editing, yada, yada, yada, yada. But Carole hasn't got very much time because Carole ladies and gentlemen, is serving on a jury. And that sounds quite exciting, Carole. What's the case all about?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, listeners, Graham has been calling me, I don't know, 3 times a day with questions, trying to get information.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And she won't tell me anything.
CAROLE THERIAULT. It's like Heavyweight, right? At the beginning of every show, he's like calling this person who's totally irritated. That was me. Oh yeah. So yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Is it a big important case?
CAROLE THERIAULT. I know I can't talk about it.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Have you spoken to anybody about it?
CAROLE THERIAULT. I can't talk about it.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Because I read in the newspaper about a high-profile case going on in America where one of the jurors blabbed to the media and it's caused some problems. Is your case about someone who may or may not have a sweating problem? Or someone—
CAROLE THERIAULT. I cannot confirm or deny how delicious the case is.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, well, let's just get on with the show then.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. First, let's thank this week's sponsors, 1Password and Upticks. It's their support that helps us give you this show for free. Coming up on today's show, Graham, what do you got?
GRAHAM CLULEY. There's a 212 in progress at the Crenshaw Mall. A 212.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Sorry.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Sounds fantastic. We're going to be rusty, guys. It's been a while. And I'm talking about books. You know, those things that people read, stories. Oh yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. Okay.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. And there's a security slant. So exciting. All this and much more coming up on this episode of Smashing Security.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, chum chum, picture the scene. It was a busy Saturday in downtown Los Angeles.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Pre-pandemic?
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, this is, yeah, this is pre-pandemic. April 15th, 2017.
CAROLE THERIAULT. The good days.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. Well, not that good actually, 2017. That's pretty shit. That's not that great.
CAROLE THERIAULT. That was the worst. See, was it? Fuck.
GRAHAM CLULEY. There'd been a homicide earlier in the day, and there'd been more calls to the Southwest Division of the LAPD than police cars to respond to them. So things were pretty hectic.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And a call comes through to Captain Darnell Davenport, the patrol commanding officer. There's a 2-1-1 in progress. You know what a 2-1-1 is, don't you, Carole?
CAROLE THERIAULT. No.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It's a robbery.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It's police code for a robbery.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Right.
GRAHAM CLULEY. There's a 2-1-1 in progress. Multiple suspects at the Macy's department store in the Crenshaw Mall. And as chance should have it, Captain Davenport, he was actually stopped close to the Macy's department store. He could actually see it from where he was parked.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Having a coffee or something.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Or donut or whatever it is that policemen have.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Whatever. Having a break, maybe. Whatever.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Parking. Well, who knows? Maybe just parked. Yeah.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Writing notes. Yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Exactly. Perusing. And he could also see not just the department store. He could also see another police car tucked away down an alley.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Just a few feet away.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So he's like, I got a bud bud nearby.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I need some backup.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well. Well, the thing was, he noticed that the police car tucked down the alley didn't respond to the call over the radio. So he thought to himself, well, that's weird, but maybe it's a traffic unit, you know, or maybe it's from a different division.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Maybe he's having a pee. Like, there must be times, like, no, but there must be times when you leave your car to go do something.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I suppose so.
CAROLE THERIAULT. And you're otherwise, could you answer if you're, you know?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Because they're not like Amazon delivery drivers, are they? It's not like they're doing it into water bottles.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Poor guys. Do the women drivers have to use sheepies? I don't know. You don't even know what that is. You don't even know what that is.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I do.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. A she-wee, isn't it? A she-wee?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh yes, she-wee. You're right, you're right, you're right.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Anyway, so Captain Davenport, he picked up his radio and he said, "Code 6 on the call." You know what code 6 means?
CAROLE THERIAULT. No. Oh, you don't know.
GRAHAM CLULEY. How are you?
CAROLE THERIAULT. I don't know anything. I've been in jury duty!
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes, but if you're on a jury, you should know this kind of parlance.
CAROLE THERIAULT. This is— No.
GRAHAM CLULEY. This is all about the law. A Code 6 means he was responding to the location. So he was going in, right?
CAROLE THERIAULT. So he's like, I know there's a robbery going on. I'm nearby. I'm going in. And he's alerting whoever, the controller, saying, this is what I'm—
GRAHAM CLULEY. And he might need backup. He might need backup, right? So there's actual robbery in progress. Multiple suspects, Macy's department store. And as he's racing in, he sees the mystery police car reversing back down the alley and away from the scene of the robbery. Hmm.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Interesting.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Right? Back at the police station, attempts were made to contact that police car, right? Ask them via radio to assist Captain Davenport as he investigated the robbery, as he did his Code 6. At Macy's, but there was no reply from the police car. And so, there was another police unit which was sent from the scene of the homicide I told you about earlier. It raced with lights flashing, sirens blaring to Macy's to provide backup for this robbery.
CAROLE THERIAULT. For the cop that was going in to do the robbery with multiple suspects. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Exactly. But there's still this mystery of what was this other police car up to? And it was, back at the police station later on. Someone thought, "It's a bit odd." And he met up with the drivers of that police car later that evening. He bumped into them at a 7-Eleven parking lot where they were topping up on their Dunkin' Donuts and their—
CAROLE THERIAULT. You're outrageous.
GRAHAM CLULEY. 99— What? No.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Getting dinner.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes. All right. Yes.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Supper.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Supper, sorry.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Cornflakes. He asked them, I always have breakfast cereal for supper, you see. I don't tend to have it in the morning.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Good for you.
GRAHAM CLULEY. So he asked them, he asked these two policemen who'd been in the car. He said, so did you hear the call for backup at Crenshaw Mall for the 211? He said, and they said, oh no, no, we didn't hear anything.
CAROLE THERIAULT. In fact, I was having a wazz.
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, no, they weren't having a wazz or a wank or a wee or a pee or anything like that. But they had a better excuse. They said that they were replying to a Code 6 at the local park where there'd been lots of really loud music, a really noisy PA system. And so they hadn't heard the radio because they said that, well, we were around the corner at the park, you know, oh, so noisy. Oh, our eardrums. And so the police were a bit suspicious about these two guys. And so they decided to review The DICVs. And the DICVs—
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, you're supposed to ask me if I know what they are.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Do you know what DICVs is?
CAROLE THERIAULT. No.
GRAHAM CLULEY. No. DICVs is, again, I can't believe they've put you on the jury rather than me. DICVs is the Digital In-Car Video System.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Of course. Okay. Yeah. Well, you see, I would have assumed most cops would have those in their cars now.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, yeah, they did have it. They had DICVS.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. Okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It's not just recording the road.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I didn't know that was called that. What's it called really? Like, DICV? Okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. D-I-C-V-S. DICVS.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. How else would you pronounce it?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, you're absolutely right.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And it's not just recording the people on the road in front of them, or, you know, the culprits and ne'er-do-wells, but also the policemen too.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, 'cause there's a microphone.
GRAHAM CLULEY. 'Cause there's a microphone and video and all the rest of it. So you can hear what the cops are saying. And it revealed that they had decided not to respond to the call. In fact, deliberately ignored it. And they'd laughed. And the multiple occasions when they were contacted via the radio, they said, "Oh, well, we're dealing with a Code 6 somewhere else." Which is really odd, right? So why was that?
CAROLE THERIAULT. I have no idea. I have no idea. I have no idea.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I'll tell you why.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I'm barely clinging on to your story.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. I'll tell you why.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. Tell me. I'm dying to know.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Because they weren't interested in catching robbers. But instead, they were hunting for Snorlax and Togetic.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. You're going to ask me? You're going to ask me? No.
GRAHAM CLULEY. How do you know what Snorlax and Togetic are?
CAROLE THERIAULT. No.
GRAHAM CLULEY. They're Pokémon. Oh. They are flipping Pokémon. They are Pokémon monsters, which back in 2017, the whole world, they're like rare Pokémon, which the whole world was playing that. Do you remember the Pokémon Go app?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Do you know, is that back? Because just today I saw a dad and their very young kid in a very rural location in Oxford on my route today. And the kid was like holding the mobile phone and there was some kind of— and like, I was— and the dad looked like he was done. Like he was done. And it was dark, you know.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Little Timmy was jumping around, "I found a Snorlax!" Yes.
CAROLE THERIAULT. But I think it was in a floodplain. I think it was in a floodplain. I think someone put it in a floodplain. So like, dad's like going, "Yeah, no, we're not going into the—" Pokemon Go.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, the game still goes. So for anyone who doesn't know, Pokemon Go was like this virtual augmented reality game where you'd walk around, in the days when we were allowed to walk around in the outside. Yeah.
CAROLE THERIAULT. The pre-rona.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You would look through your phone and you'd see obviously what your camera would see, but then it would also add Pokemon monsters and you could catch them with your Pokedex. You could throw a ball at them. And entrap them, and you could sort of— you could build them up in Pokémon gyms and make them stronger and fight each other. They're basically virtual creatures. And what was happening back in 2017 was everyone was bonkers about this game, including, it seems, these two policemen, because the DICVS, the Digital In-Car Video System, captured for about 20 minutes the two policemen discussing Pokémon. As they drove to different locations where the virtual creatures had appeared on the Superfetus.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So they were like, oh, hey, we could go in and help the guy who's gone in alone at Macy's to face the robbers and stuff. But actually, let's go get this monster.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It's really close by. Let's go. Exactly. There's like, oh, a Togetic has just popped up. Or they were saying to each other, here on Crenshaw, just south of 50th, we can pick up a Snorlax. Embarrassing. And it also—
CAROLE THERIAULT. And there's no kid in the car, right? No, no, no, no. There's no kid they're trying to entertain or anything. There's not like little Timmy going, "Please." No, it's not Take Timmy to Work Day.
GRAHAM CLULEY. That's not what's going on. These are two grown men, presumably with guns because it's America, right, as well, who are spending their— And they're cops. And they're cops. Yeah. Well, it's irrelevant really.
CAROLE THERIAULT. On-duty cops. They're on-duty cops.
GRAHAM CLULEY. They're on duty. On duty. They're going around and apparently they're caught saying, "Got 'em!" Or, you know, "Go get it!" or "Don't run away, don't run away!" But they're actually talking about Pokémon monsters. Exactly.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Every time they say that.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And it's like, "Holy crap, man, this thing is fighting the crap out of me," says one of them to the other one.
CAROLE THERIAULT. "I've been ultra-balled." You know, if they had been smart, if they had been smart and timed their timing better to when actual big shit was going down, but actually stayed in the car and, you know, they could have probably pulled it off. You know, like the sound effects would would have been perfect if they said, "Oh, I got him!" They'd be like, "Yeah, I know. Yeah." Well, the police— Wow. Mortifying.
GRAHAM CLULEY. The policemen had their collars felt over this, and they denied playing the game. They said they were—
CAROLE THERIAULT. Of course.
GRAHAM CLULEY. They said, "Well, no, no, no." They said, "We were just having a conversation about Pokémon GO." "We have children." Yes. And they said, "Oh, no. I've been receiving text messages and alerts from a Pokémon GO players group." And other people were bragging about their scores, they said. But detectives thought maybe the police weren't telling completely the truth about this.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, because they had the audio. So that helps, you know.
GRAHAM CLULEY. So these two cops, Louis Lozano and Eric Mitchell, they were found guilty of failing to respond to a robbery call, making misleading statements, failing to respond to the radio when contacted, playing Pokémon Go on duty. I don't know if that's a specific rule. You know what?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Who makes Pokémon Go? Nintendo. Well, do they not have to respond to this? What? What? And say, look, we're distracting officers of the law. We've built something that's a little too addictive.
GRAHAM CLULEY. No? Well, maybe they should. Yeah. Well, there were big concerns that, you know, kids could go into dangerous parts of town.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes, I remember.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Looking for these things. Now you might be wondering, why am I talking about this now if it's 2017?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Because it's 2022 and you haven't had time to do enough research?
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, no. It's because these two cops Lozano and Mitchell, the Pokémon Go fans, they appealed their misconduct trial where they were basically struck off as cops. So, okay, so they said, "No, we weren't really." Well, part of their argument was that the Digivice, the surveillance system, the video in-car thing, it shouldn't be allowed to be used in this fashion because they said this was a personal conversation. Rather than anything to do with police. And, you know, should conversations you have in your car be private? What about if your car is provided to you by your employer? All of these devices with microphones now are collecting information. So they tried to say, well, this is just outrageous. You know, we have basically been spied upon.
CAROLE THERIAULT. And before you tell me what happened, okay, my immediate reaction to that is like, okay, but you have a gun, right? And you're out there trying to protect the public.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You're video-cammed and that, you know, there you go. Yeah, they weren't being the best policemen, were they? And I'm afraid, well, maybe I'm not afraid, their appeal has now failed. But you can read more about it in the links in the show notes. But, um—
CAROLE THERIAULT. Fascinating though, and mortifying for them. Like, it wasn't like they were— there's no heroic angle to this.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, maybe their kids are impressed because they got some really rare Pokémon.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, yeah. Well, we'll find out in 20 years when they have their own podcast.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Sell them as an NFT. My dad. I can't imagine your dad playing Pokémon. Carole, what have you got for us this week? Okay.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So let's say, Graham, you You want to write a book. Oh yes, I do. Yeah, see, I know you do. Okay, and you don't want to write just any book, do you? You want to write the book.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I want to write the book about you. Spotlight on Carole. Wow. Okay, that's not weird. A clinical examination from a psychological viewpoint.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, well, you'll need a lot of experts to help you out there. Let's say, for example, that you had trouble finding, you know, the engaging lead. Yes, you had trouble. You're writing a fiction book, maybe you had trouble finding the struggle. You had trouble finding like who suffers and who falls in love and all the yada yada.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And something to get people hooked right at the beginning, saying juicy or a weird twist in the tale.
CAROLE THERIAULT. And maybe you're sitting there at your desk, right? Maybe, you know, you'd have your laptop and you just, you have a blank screen. And you know, you're right, it was a cold night. Delete. You know, it just doesn't work. You got writer's block, basically. Right? There's maybe there's no book in there, Graham. Maybe there's no book in there.
GRAHAM CLULEY. What, no book in me? Yeah.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Do you think there's a book in you?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, you're probably right.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Some people say there's a book in everyone. I don't think I agree. I'm not sure I agree. Anyway, you want to be this best-selling celebrated author, right? But you don't have a story.
GRAHAM CLULEY. So what do you do? Um, are you, are you actually asking me what would I do? Yeah, it's not rhetorical at this stage. I've, I've sometimes wondered about this, and I thought what would be quite a clever idea would be to find a book written in a foreign language which hasn't been translated into English, maybe something from like 60 years ago, and just translate it and then flog it as my own.
CAROLE THERIAULT. And hope that Google Translate does a really good job for you. Um, so you're not alone, Claude. There's someone else who's in this predicament. Filippo Bernardini. Oh, Filippo. Okay, 29, Italian resident, and he's been arrested. And maybe I should tell you first what happened to him so you don't fall into the same sinkhole like when you write your own book. Right? Because this guy claims he wanted to, you know, write the book that ends all books, and he's looking for a plot. And interestingly, or very conveniently perhaps, he works for a major publisher, Simon Schuster. Oh, yes. Right? And he works as a low-level rights coordinator. I'm going to ask you, what does a low-level rights coordinator mean? Well, you've got your high-level rights.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And you've got your medium-level rights, but there are those ones which sort of float around your ankles, and those are the ones which really need to be coordinated.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So, it took me a while, right? I actually got someone else to do the recon on this because I couldn't find anything, but basically it's like selling rights to books for translations. Oh, hello. Yep. Audiobooks, TV, movie versions, newspapers, that kind of thing. And how much do you think they get paid on average? This is based on some weird page on the internet, but what do you think? What do you think? They get paid?
GRAHAM CLULEY. I think they get paid £35,000 British pounds a year. Half that, £18,000. Oh, that's not very generous, right?
CAROLE THERIAULT. So, so, okay, so I'm just trying to build a picture for Filippo Bernardini. Yeah, right, he's, you know, low to mid-income, right, working at a very huge publishing house, 29.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You would think Simon Schuster could afford more than that.
CAROLE THERIAULT. But whatever. The problem is, is that Filippo got arrested last Wednesday at JFK Airport in New York because he's accused of basically impersonating the movers and shakers of the literati world in order to allegedly dupe authors into handing over their not-yet-published manuscripts or parts of them.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Hang on, hang on. When you say he impersonated people in the world of literature—
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, I should clarify.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Was he dressing himself up as Salman Rushdie or something?
CAROLE THERIAULT. He dressed up as Margaret Atwood, right? No, no, he didn't do any of that. He, of course, he used the easiest method that we all fall for. He used email and he used phishing tactics and he cleverly hid I's into 1's and changed addresses and email addresses in order to convince people that he was writing from the right place. But of course, he had a huge, you know, Rolodex. Kids, that's like kind of like your contacts list. But he had a Rolodex of really important names, right? Because he worked at Simon Schuster, and he would have had access to all that information.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, and because he's part of that industry, the people who he does deal with are sometimes dealing with big, big authors.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So in the interview with the bookseller in 2019, Margaret Atwood confirmed that that there had been concerted efforts to steal the manuscript of her book, The Testaments, which came out, I think, last year or the year before. But, you know, trying to get it before it was released. And she says, quote, "There were loads of phony emails from people trying to wrinkle even just 3 pages, even just anything," she noted.
GRAHAM CLULEY. So would he send an email, Margaret at Wood, or something like that?
CAROLE THERIAULT. What was that? You know, what's that Scandi book? The Scandi, um, Oh, Stieg Larsson's Millennium series.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the girl with the dragon tattoo, all that stuff.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, right, right, right. So, okay, so apparently when he was writing it— but he died at the third book, I think he died during the series. Yeah, but anyway, like, apparently he was like, no one could see anything, right? Like, everything is just like under lock and key. Um, and there was all these kind of crazy ways, like you'd only get it when it was done because he didn't want it to leak because it was so such hot property.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, the publishers don't want people getting advanced copies. It's a bit like J.K. Rowling. If she's got a new Harry Potter book, or who's that Da Vinci Code chap?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Exactly. Right. Okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. So it's like a big, it's a big media event. It's all under lock and key and you can't have copies. But if they're being translated, I suppose they are being distributed, aren't they, to various or some people?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, they're being distributed to specific people, probably for like, make the COVID art from these 4 chapters, please, or from this description. There must be loads of reasons why you'd send segments of your book. And he would take advantage of that this is the allegation, why he's been arrested. And he would email them pretending to be maybe their agent or their editor, right? And say, hey, hope you're great, can you just resend me the link to the manuscript, um, you know, because I've deleted it accidentally or something, right?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Whatever. But if he was sometimes stealing just a few pages from the likes of Margaret Atwood, how's that going to help him? How's he going to compile some sort of book with a bit of this and a bit of that? It's gonna be some sort of Frankenstein's monster, isn't it?
CAROLE THERIAULT. That's really interesting because I wonder if he came up with that afterwards. I think what he was doing was collecting all these little bits and then probably gonna put them underground for 30 years and then come up and go, "You see, now that blah blah is dead, I have the writings that they never put out." I don't know.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Or he could claim that they stole it from him, but he still has some.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, yeah, he was the original. Yes, he had an email. Yes, yes. But he was first rumbled way back in 2016 with someone working on the Fifth Dragon Tattoo book, right? Right. Still, you know, huge deal. And the recipient felt something was off about the email asking to reset a password giving access to the hush-hush manuscript. So they contacted the apparent sender by another means. So let's say they were dealing with Jessica, right? Instead of emailing, replying to the email, they called Jessica. And quickly figured out that there was a scam going on because Jess was going, I never asked you to send me that, right? And they're going, well, I just got an email. And apparently while they were having this conversation, there was another request on the email while they were chatting on the phone. So, uh, this is all into an article from The Vulture. I will put in the link. It's worth reading.
GRAHAM CLULEY. So this, this guy was quite active.
CAROLE THERIAULT. How long was he doing this? 200 authors he went after. 200. He was called the Spine Collector. Oh, that sounds— that would be—
GRAHAM CLULEY. Book spine. I know. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. That would be— but that would be, that'd be quite a good name for a book.
CAROLE THERIAULT. The Spine Collector, wouldn't it? Maybe that's what he was doing all along. He now has his story. So like journalists, like this is going on 2016, right? Journalists pick up on the story, dig in for a while, couldn't figure out who it was because every clue just turned out to be another spoofed email address. And apparently he'd always imitate the writing style of the person. So obviously someone with insider knowledge for how people act and write.
GRAHAM CLULEY. But did he ever ask for a ransom, or did he ever, you know, post up?
CAROLE THERIAULT. He didn't do anything. He didn't do anything with manuscripts either.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, what a weirdo. Allegedly.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, maybe he was working on that. Allegedly.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, after that many years. Allegedly. Allegedly. And the allegation—
CAROLE THERIAULT. alleged— no, the allegation is definitely that he used his slighter knowledge of the industry to get authors to send him their unpublished books and texts by posing as agents, publishing houses, and literary scouts. And he's been charged with wire fraud and identity theft for a scheme that prosecutors said affected hundreds of people for more than 5 years.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It's a bit odd, isn't it? I mean, it's almost like he's collecting these just for his own entertainment. It's a bit like, um, you know, someone who's collecting art but can never show it because it's been stolen.
CAROLE THERIAULT. The power thing. And it'll be totally worth a lot of money, the story afterwards, being able to say, and then I stole this from this person. Like, he was basically building his novel by stealing the stuff, right? Or he wasn't at all involved.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Exactly. And I think that's— and he's very innocent. That's important for us to stress. However, if he were to be found guilty, we will talk again about it. What's going to happen to him, allegedly?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, allegedly, huge, huge years. I think it was like something like 50 years he was facing or something ridiculous. We'll see what happens. It is in America. I don't know. But more interestingly, did you know that Ethan Hawke was also affected by this? And I was just interested that he wrote.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I think he's written a few. He's the guy from Before Sunset, isn't he? With Julie Delpy. Right.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I think that's where I know him from, but I can't remember what movie I know him from.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Wasn't he in Gattaca as well? These are all movies I haven't seen, obviously. But yeah, I think he's written a few books. Ethan Hawke.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Ethan Hawke. See, cute and smart.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You don't know he's smart just because he's written a book.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, you haven't written a book. What, QED?
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GRAHAM CLULEY. Can you join us for our favorite part of the show? The part of the show that we like to call Pick of the Week.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Pick of the Week. Pick of the Week.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Pick of the Week is the part of the show where everyone chooses something they like. Could be a funny story, a book that they've read, a TV show, a movie, a record, a podcast, a website, or an app. Whatever they wish. Doesn't have to be security related necessarily. Better not be. Now, Carole. Graham. We're big fans on this podcast of the Smashing Security podcast. It's one of our favorite podcasts, in fact, right?
CAROLE THERIAULT. It's just stellar. It's— 5 years. Do you know it's been going for 5 years?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Do you know this week is the 30th anniversary of me working in the cybersecurity industry? 30 years.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I can't believe you just said that on air.
GRAHAM CLULEY. 30 years of me just wibbling on, telling people to turn on multifactor authentication. Anyway. I've often wondered, I thought, are there any other podcasts out there like Smashing Security, which maybe aren't about cybersecurity, but are about something else instead?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Wouldn't that be wonderful?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Let me introduce to you, like a parallel universe version of Smashing Security, which I've discovered.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Good song. 993-0004. They've got a great song. One of the best songs I've ever heard about pest control marketing. Hello folks, it's Hal Coleman and welcome to another episode of Pest Control Marketing. So what do you see in here? K-Sue. Where we teach you how to— One of them's like me and one of them's like you, I thought.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. I think actually we are.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes. There's a similarity.
CAROLE THERIAULT. He's an artist, obviously, because he's got a lot of pictures, a lot of art going on. My guy.
GRAHAM CLULEY. That's Hal. You're Hal Coleman. Yeah. And the other guy is Mike. I love it. And they're very knowledgeable about pest control marketing. And they do this every couple of weeks. Incredible.
CAROLE THERIAULT. It's very entertaining. How do you end up on— This. Do you have a pest problem?
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, I don't have a pest problem. No, no, I have no infestations currently.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Do they do STD stuff as well? Oh, sorry. Whoa. Sorry, sorry. Sheesh.
GRAHAM CLULEY. But they also, Hal Coleman and Mike Stewart, other than helping pest control companies improve their marketing with regular podcasts and live streams, they also have a sister site called pestcontrolmarketingjingles.com.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Hey, can I see that as well?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh yeah, go to pestcontrolmarketingjingles.com and they've got, well, they're showing off their 40-year experience and expertise at writing and producing jingles and audio ads. Pest control that you can trust, Google can't determine. Count on us, call 770-479-1598 today. Now admittedly, some of them do sound a bit similar. But I reckon if you've got a winning formula, don't mess with it. Call 770-479-1598. Although they're not afraid to try something a bit more experimental.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Pest control that you can trust. To kill cats and termites, count on us. Call 770-479-1598. Graham, we are in our 5th year. Don't you think it's time to bring me a present? Ooh. We could ask them to do a jingle for us. Oh. You know?
GRAHAM CLULEY. I think they only do jingles for pest control firms. I'm not sure they like to branch out beyond that. They know what they're good at.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I'm reading the testimonials about people who have used their jingles. They sound super excited. The first day my jingle played on social media, I started getting phone calls. Sure, somewhere, some— sure, somewhere, some were— some were for— I can't speak. Sure, some were for— I can't do it.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You can't speak any longer?
CAROLE THERIAULT. I'm done. A great jingle will make you money for years and will imprint your business in the minds of listeners forever.
GRAHAM CLULEY. They've got Country Cockroaches, Classic Smooth Smashing Security. Nashville. I guess it could be, because I mean, we do have bugs in cybersecurity. Maybe we could.
CAROLE THERIAULT. We don't need to, yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. We don't need to tell them that we're not.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, plausible deniability. See, legal term.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Right. Oh, you're learning. Anyway. I'll subscribe. I think you might get a lot from it, because I know you've had pest problems. And like I said, I think Hal is you, Mike is me. And I know a lot of our listeners do actually run pest control companies and may be interested in improving their marketing. Then this is an excellent resource for them to go to. And that is why it is my pick of the week.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. Mine's a little bit more highbrow. Okay. This is one I should do with a guest on because they would save me. They'd buffer you from, from your wrath. Okay. It's a podcast. Right. Think with Pinker. With Steven Pinker.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Steven, is he famous? Is he someone I should know?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh dear, yes, he's quite a well-known intellectual thinker about— is he one of these rational—
GRAHAM CLULEY. has he written a book? Is that— he's one of them?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Uh, yeah, he's written a few books, right? And, uh, you know, he also teaches at universities and, you know, has podcasts and does all kinds of stuff. And he's a really weird guy. Now, he's also Canadian, I think.
GRAHAM CLULEY. He is. I should I've just looked him up.
CAROLE THERIAULT. He is, right? Okay. Canadian psychologist.
GRAHAM CLULEY. He's got crazy hair. Yeah, he's crazy looking, isn't he?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. He's crazy looking. And he's crazy sounding as well. So it makes for an interesting show. And there's a podcast called Think with Pinker. And the whole idea is kind of— actually, maybe I should give you one of the dilemmas. Let me give you a dilemma, Graham. Okay. So there are 3 big pots in front of you. Okay. Right. And one of them has a car underneath it. Okay. Big pot. Okay. One has a car underneath the pot. Very big pot. Big pot. All right. Okay. And the other two do not have a car. Maybe they have like elephants. Okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Again, and a huge, huge pots or small elephants.
CAROLE THERIAULT. You're a busy guy. You don't drink coffee. You don't want to take care of, you know, fucking elephants, right? You don't want to be in, you know, how do you get rid of that?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Who do you call?
CAROLE THERIAULT. How do you handle that?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. When you have an elephant dumped on you, it's a real pain. Right? How are you going to deal with it?
CAROLE THERIAULT. You don't want to be dumped on by the elephant either.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And the dustman won't take them away. It's just, you know, yeah, it's a nuisance.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So I say, okay, choose the car. Here you've got pot 1, pot 2, pot 3. 1, 2 has elephants. 1 has a car. Go. Okay. And so you make a selection. So, you know, 1, 2, 3, make a choice. Yeah. Make a choice. Make a choice.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, can I look under the pots? Nope. Oh. Just make a choice. Can I listen to see if there's an elephant inside?
CAROLE THERIAULT. The roar of the engine.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay, all right, all right, all right. 1, there you go. Right, I'm up to number 1. Okay, 1.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I'm lifting up 1. Me and my 18 men are lifting up the pot, right? And we lift up the pot and there's an elephant underneath. Okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. That wasn't entirely fair, Carole.
CAROLE THERIAULT. No, no, it's okay. It's okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You were gonna say that whatever number I said.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, but maybe I say, "You have another choice now. You can go again.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You can go again.
CAROLE THERIAULT. You can go again." Oh no, okay, I did it wrong. I did it wrong.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Is it actually Noam Chomsky? No. Is Noam Chomsky under one of these cups?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, you said 1. You said 1. Okay. Turns out that was correct. No, I say, "Okay, no, good." I say, "Good for you. I'm gonna lift up number 3." Right? And I lift up number 3. Right. To show you maybe the car's underneath, maybe an elephant. It's an elephant. Okay, so now you've got 50/50 now, right? It's elephant and car. You're like, much higher stakes. I'm saying to you now, like, okay, you get to go again. You get to go again. You want to stick? Do you want to stick with one or do you want to go? Do you want to go with two? I'll stick with one. This is what the podcast is like. It's not at all.
GRAHAM CLULEY. That's so pivoted. I could be listening to the, the pest control marketing podcast right now.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Can I just tell you, Bill Gates goes on this podcast, okay? So it's like a really smart podcast. There's lots of cool stuff on the podcast.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It's not very useful, is it? This is not a likely scenario to happen. Okay. No. All right. I'll stick on one. I'll stick. Keep playing with— I will stick on number one.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. You know what? What? Worst decision you've ever made in your life.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, that's not fair.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay. Because now you have an elephant. What? Because so when you made your first choice, you had a third of a probability of getting. So you always switch. They give you a new opportunity to vote and you have a smaller amount of options, switch, just switch. Why? Because probability dictates that you must. It makes sense to do it. No, it doesn't. You've got to do it. No, it does.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It does not.
CAROLE THERIAULT. It does. No. He chose lift number 3.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Can I tell you what happened?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Right before the show, I had all my notes, okay, for this bit, and I lost them. I did a cut and paste and I did another cut. So I lost my notes. So I'm actually going to sound like an idiot right now. So listeners, I'm depending on you. Can you explain to Graham by Twitter, email, whatever your means are, why he has to switch?
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, I disagree.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, but that just shows you're an idiot and you should listen to the podcast. So listeners, if you think you need to stick— I don't even think he brings it up on the podcast. But it's— these are the kind of issues that you will hear about. So you want to listen to— if you're like me, you want to—
GRAHAM CLULEY. Are you on a jury? Are you actually judging whether people should—
CAROLE THERIAULT. I'm not judging anything.
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, but are you determining the guilt or innocence of somebody? I cannot confirm.
CAROLE THERIAULT. That's very personal, Graham, and inappropriate. Just think with Pinker.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I think the defense could bring this up. They could bring this up against you. Just play this bit of the podcast. Edited.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So my pick of the week, I'm going to do this whole bit again. Should we do this again?
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, it's great. I think you've explained it perfectly. Everyone wants to Listen to this now. Well, that just about wraps it up for this week.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Wow. Don't— maybe I should do it again one more time. No, it was great.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It was perfect. I have to edit it. It was perfect. You don't have to edit that at all. That is perfect as it was. Don't forget, next week we might have a guest. It all depends on whether Carole is still on a jury service or not. Pray for me. Until then, you can follow us on Twitter @SmashingSecurity, no G, Twitter must have a G, and also join us on the Smashing Security subreddit. And don't forget to ensure you never miss another episode, follow Smashing Security in your favorite podcast app, such as Spotify, Overcast, and Apple Podcasts.
CAROLE THERIAULT. And seriously, ginormous shoutouts to to this episode's sponsors, 1Password and Upticks, and to our wonderful Patreon community. It's thanks to all of you that this show is free for everybody. For episode show notes, sponsorship information, guest list, and the entire back catalog of way too many episodes, check out smashingsecurity.com.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Until next time, cheerio. Bye-bye. Bye. There's three enormous pots. One of them has a car, two of them have elephants. I say number one. Your guy Pinker lifts number three and says it's an elephant.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Do you remember Deal or No Deal? Same idea as this. Yes. Okay, when you get to the end and you have two boxes left, or you've gone from three boxes to two, you always switch in order to create your probability to be 50/50 rather than a third. Because the first time you made the choice, it was a third, third, third. And then when you have the next choice, it's half, half.
GRAHAM CLULEY. This is nonsense. This is nonsense.
CAROLE THERIAULT. It doesn't mean you're actually going to win if you do it the way I'm saying, I'm just saying you increase your probability of my changing.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You're not increasing your probability.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Um, can I just say I got 97% in high school probability, so you don't want to mess with me. And that was high school. Seriously.
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