Tesla takes customer service a step too far, is it a romantic gesture or stalking when you email 246 women called Nicole, and Carole finds herself in a Facebook dilemma.
All this and much much more is discussed in the latest edition of the "Smashing Security" podcast by computer security veterans Graham Cluley and Carole Theriault, joined this week by Jessica Barker.
Follow the show on Twitter at @SmashinSecurity, or visit our website for more episodes.
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Warning: This podcast may contain nuts, adult themes, and rude language.
Theme tune: "Vinyl Memories" by Mikael Manvelyan.
Assorted sound effects: AudioBlocks.
Special Guest: Jessica Barker.
Sponsored By:
- Smashing Security: We're sponsoring ourselves this week! Get in touch at if you're interested in partnering with us for a future episode of the show.
Links:
- How I Went From Tesla Delivery Hell To Tesla Giving Me Control Of Their Site Forums With Over 1.5 Million Tesla Account Contacts — DansDeals.com.
- Customer Complains About Tesla Forums, Tesla Accidentally Gives Him Control Over Them — Motherboard.
- A Guy Emailed 246 Nicoles Trying To Find The One He Met At A Bar And Now They're All Friends — Buzzfeed News.
- Facebook exodus: 44 percent of American users ages 18-29 have deleted app — CNBC.
- How Facebook employees reacted to NYT report on leadership, scandals — Business Insider.
- Delay, Deny and Deflect: How Facebook’s Leaders Fought Through Crisis — New York Times.
- Facebook’s top execs ‘make tobacco executives look like Mister Rogers’ — Recode.
- Facebook Morale, Hurt by Share Drop, Suffers Another Hit — Bloomberg.
- “I Hope It Cracks Who She Is Wide Open”: Inside Silicon Valley, Many Have Long Known Sheryl Sandberg Isn’t a Saint — Vanity Fair.
- Now eight parliaments are demanding Zuckerberg answers for Facebook scandals — TechCrunch.
- The Beatles - Glass Onion (2018 Mix) — YouTube.
- The Beatles (White Album) 50th Anniversary Edition — The Beatles.
- American Animals.
- Krissy Brierre-Davis (@krissys_kitchen) — Twitter.
- iPhone hack: Thousands of people just discovered the 'life-changing' space bar trick — The Independent.
- Smashing Security merchandise (t-shirts, mugs, stickers and stuff)
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Transcript +
This transcript was generated automatically, and has not been manually verified. It may contain errors and omissions. In particular, speaker labels, proper nouns, and attributions may be incorrect. Treat it as a helpful guide rather than a verbatim record — for the real thing, give the episode a listen.
JESSICA BARKER. He said, if your name is Nicole and you're from Holland and you think Nietzsche is depressing— I don't know if I pronounced that correctly, I'm not sure— but if you think Nietzsche is depressing, then call me. Here's my number.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Is this the kind of small talk people get up to these days?
CAROLE THERIAULT. You know, if you've gone to university, Graham, like some of us have, you'd of course know that this is what we talk about all the time in the cafes.
UNKNOWN. Smashing Security, Episode 105: Facebook, Nietzsche, Tesla, and Nicole with Carole Theriault and Graham Cluley. Hello, hello, and welcome to Smashing Security, Episode 105. My name is Graham Cluley.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I'm Carole Theriault.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Hello, Carole.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Hello.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And we've got a special guest with us, haven't we?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Someone who hasn't been on the show before.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Drum roll, please. We are joined by Madame Jessica Barker.
JESSICA BARKER. Hello, it's a pleasure to be here.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I'm not sure she's a madame.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, not a madam.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, I see. Right.
JESSICA BARKER. Big difference.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Very big difference. He's not very worldly, Jessica.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I don't want to be that worldly. Jessica, for those people who don't know you, uh, describe yourself and what you do.
JESSICA BARKER. Sure. So I work in cybersecurity on the human side of cybersecurity. So my interests are around awareness, behavior, culture, and I am one of the co-founders and co- CEOs of Sygenta.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And we had the pleasure of hanging out with you a bit because we were all on the Secure Tour earlier this year, weren't we, with the guys from Chess Cybersecurity?
JESSICA BARKER. That was so much fun.
CAROLE THERIAULT. It was great fun.
JESSICA BARKER. You all had to hear my jokes repeatedly again and again.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Now we have an exciting show this week. We're talking about Tesla, we're talking about University of Calgary and people named Nicole, and we're talking about Facebook and whether they deserve the kick in the shins. Yes, All this coming up. Stay tuned. Hi everyone. Graham, I've brought you here because I think you have something to explain to all our thousands and thousands and thousands of listeners.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It's not that bad. Do I really have to?
JESSICA BARKER. Yep.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay. Well, I made a small, a little— Don't downplay it. I made a mistake while we did the recording of this week's show and it means that our audio is suboptimal.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Exactly. Now it's not bad. It's definitely not terrible. Definitely worth listening to. You will— those of you that are very keen will hear a few little scritches and scratches in, um, some weird places. You can listen out for those. So it's all Graham's fault, and it's okay, he's learned from his mistake. Um, but as punishment, we are not going to have a sponsor this week because we're self-flagellating, aren't we?
GRAHAM CLULEY. So we're—
CAROLE THERIAULT. no, we're self-regulating. We're self-regulating, and we like to put out quality. And you know, it's Thanksgiving, isn't it, Graham?
GRAHAM CLULEY. It is Thanksgiving.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So thank you to all our sponsors who supported us thus far, and our American listeners. And listeners, as a gift for you, you get to zoom through this episode without any interruption. You're welcome.
GRAHAM CLULEY. But if anyone does want to sponsor us in future, I heard we've got a few gaps in the schedule available for 2019, so they should get in touch.
CAROLE THERIAULT. How about we word it a different way? How about we say something like, we are now taking sponsorship, however, for 2019 shows. So if you or your company are interested in partnering with us, get in touch via .
GRAHAM CLULEY. Cool. On with the show. And welcome back, and welcome to the future. Imagine a future where we're all being transported in driverless cars, where colonies have been set up on the planet Mars, where we can jump on high-speed transportation systems like Hyperloop and go from San Francisco to Los Angeles at 800 Miles per hour.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Wow. Graham, have you been reading sci-fi again?
GRAHAM CLULEY. This isn't sci-fi. This is inside the brain of our beloved leader, the technology whiz kid known as Elon Musk.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Excuse me, he is not my leader, please.
GRAHAM CLULEY. He's not your particular guiding sun ray, Carole, in the future?
CAROLE THERIAULT. No, definitely not.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, some people really love to defend Tesla, and they love to defend Elon Musk as well. They get really, really zealot-like, don't they? I don't— have you ever been in a Tesla car, either of you?
JESSICA BARKER. No. No, I never have.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I haven't either, but I've peered in through the window and it's like a glimpse into the future with their great big iPad-like screen. And people who have them are very— they love to talk about them.
CAROLE THERIAULT. My husband's been in one.
GRAHAM CLULEY. They love to talk about the gadgets. Has he?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, he's been in one and he said he was very scared for his life because they drove very fast down windy roads out on the West Coast. But yeah, he'd had the time of his life.
JESSICA BARKER. Is this the future? Just more terror?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, one person who certainly is looking forward to Teslas is a guy called Dan. He doesn't appear to have a surname. Dan lives in Cleveland with his wife Mimi and the 3 kids, and he runs a website called DansDeals.com, which links to online deals for anything and everything, offers advice on anything to do with points and air miles and travel and things like that. And he decided it was time to upgrade his car and get a Tesla. Model 3.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, business is going well, isn't it, Dan?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Clearly it is. Affiliate marketing works well. So you'd expect it to be pretty easy to get your hands on a Tesla, wouldn't you, once they've actually manufactured them? Turns out it's a bit of a nightmare.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Don't we know that there have been problems from our sometimes guest, Scott Helmee?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh yes, because he's after a Tesla, isn't he?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Right, yeah, yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. He's been waiting for a long old time. He's a great car head, isn't he? What do they call them?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, car head. That's right.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Piston head.
JESSICA BARKER. Something like that.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Petrol head? Petrol. Thank you.
JESSICA BARKER. Well, not petrol.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, she shouldn't have told him.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Anyway, Dan had all kinds of false starts trying to get his Tesla, screw-ups, problems, before he'd even had the keys handed over to them. And he's detailed all this in a long blog post. But he shrugged them off because he thought, well, it will all be worth it when I finally get my paws on this car of the future. And eventually—
CAROLE THERIAULT. That's what Scott Helmee says too.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Eventually, the glorious day came. And he went to pick up the car, but there were problems and the car needed to get some part of the windscreen fixed. And the garage caused even more damage while it was fixing the windscreen. Basically, he didn't have a great service experience. Okay. And Tesla wasn't keeping its promises. And it's at this point that Dan went onto Tesla's online customer forum and he posted at length about his negative experience. Oh. And a thread began to appear. And he thought, oh, I need to clarify something in my initial post. So he went to edit his post. And when he did that, the thread completely disappeared.
JESSICA BARKER. Okay.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It was like Pravda-like instruction from on high that the negative message had to be zapped. And it turned out that he was limited to only making one post a day as he didn't have what was called an owner's account. 'Cause obviously they hadn't determined that he was a Tesla owner.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, because he didn't own a Tesla yet.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Gotcha.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, he did.
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, he did, but they hadn't updated their database or something.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Something crazy had gone wrong. So he rings up Tesla customer service and says, "Ring, ring, ring, ring." Yeah. "You need to get my online account sorted out." And they say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. We understand the problem." "Sorry, monsieur." Yeah. I don't know that they're French anyway, but the original Tesla was a Croat, wasn't it?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes, that's right.
JESSICA BARKER. Yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And they nicked his name. I don't know if his estate gets any money from Elon Musk, but anyway, they say they're going to work it out. They say, "We'll pass on your message to the IT department." Okay. 1 hour passes, tick, tick, tick, and Dan checks back on the forum and something has changed. Suddenly he has the ability to edit and delete everybody's posts. He found he could access special hidden forums, but more than that, he could also access the contact information of, um, oh, 1.5 million account holders.
CAROLE THERIAULT. That's exactly what you want to give a customer who is disgruntled, right?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Exactly. The ultimate power.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Christmas has arrived. Celebrate good times, come on. So did he go crazy? Did he— what did he do?
GRAHAM CLULEY. He found that he had basically been given admin rights by Tesla customer service just by ringing them up. And he could now not only view all of these users, but even employee profiles. He even found the real Elon Musk. Turns out he hadn't logged in for 3 and a half years, which might explain why the forum was so badly organised and no one was answering questions.
JESSICA BARKER. Awkward.
GRAHAM CLULEY. He could even create new car reservations or request a Supercharger to be built in a particular street. You know, so if he wanted a Supercharger in his street, he could order one.
CAROLE THERIAULT. He must have been at the crossroads, right, when he discovered what power he had. He must have sat there and said, "Do I change this to basically send over something to me and use this for my benefit and be a bit naughty? Or do I tell the world?" It's like a test of ethics.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes, yes.
JESSICA BARKER. Which way is he going to take it? Exactly.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I'm fascinated that you come up with that particular moral dilemma, actually, Carole, because I would've thought you'd just be a decent human being. But the fact that you are pondering this—
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, I don't know if Dan's a decent human being.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, you are projecting and assuming he might be a bad guy, which I think might say more about you than lovely Dan from DanSteels.com.
CAROLE THERIAULT. You've only known me 20 years. Yeah, but Dan—
GRAHAM CLULEY. Exactly. Anyway, he found that he has all this access and he had a little bit more poking around. And what he found was that he wasn't the only administrator who didn't have a Tesla email account associated. There were other administrators with Gmail and Yahoo accounts. And he began to wonder, has Tesla tech support screwed up like this in the past? Right. Made other people admins.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And he found that others who continued to have access were former employees of Tesla who still had access.
CAROLE THERIAULT. The can of worms just gets bigger and bigger.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Why hadn't their rights been revoked? Anyway, so what did he do with all this power? Well, what he did was he undeleted his message thread, the one which he originally posted.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Of course he did.
JESSICA BARKER. Okay. Oh, I just want to be heard.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Because that's all he'd really wanted.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Right. That's what everyone wants. That's what every— Graham wants that most of all. Hence agreeing to come on the podcast.
GRAHAM CLULEY. So that worked and he got his message back, but it triggered an interesting response. Because now people got suspicious that someone who now had an official Tesla logo next to his username was slagging off Tesla. And they asked him, well, how did you get that little red steering wheel, that little logo there next to your name? And are you deliberately sabotaging the forum? And all these new threads started springing up saying, who is Dan? And conspiracy theories.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Elon Musk lovers went nuts.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And there are lots of them.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Lots of them.
JESSICA BARKER. Oh dear, you don't want to alienate the Elon Musk fans.
CAROLE THERIAULT. This is definitely a get the popcorn moment, isn't it?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Dan, however, fortunately was a good guy and he was just trying to get Tesla to listen to him about the security issue. Finally, eventually they responded and they issued a statement saying, we inadvertently granted a higher level of permission to someone who shouldn't have had it. And we've audited the accounts and we've had to make adjustments to some of the privileges that some of the account holders had. But we've got no reason to believe that any of this has been abused.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I'm looking for the word sorry. Somewhere.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It's not really in the vocabulary of Elon Musk, I think, and his company to apologize.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, that's true. There's quite a lot of precedent for that, isn't there?
GRAHAM CLULEY. But they have said, you know, if anyone finds a potential security vulnerability in future, to address it to their bug bounty program. But I just found it amazing that there are so many hackers trying to break into message boards and steal information. Sometimes all you've got to do is ring up customer service and say, "you know, I'm having a problem with my account on your forum." And they say, "Here's the admin rights, go and sort it out for yourself." So does this count as a bug for a bug bounty?
JESSICA BARKER. That they accidentally made him an owner of the forum rather than an owner that could contribute to the forum? Is that a bug?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, they'd probably say, "Unfortunately, what you found is not exactly a bug. And whilst we love to pay a bounty, we are under no obligation to do so.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Thanks so much." Well, they haven't yet said that, although they've pointed this user towards the bug bounty program, they haven't yet said whether he's going to actually make any cash out of this or not. So that remains to be seen, but I feel like he's done everyone a service here. And if it actually gets more Tesla employees properly engaged on the forum, answering people's questions and providing a high-level service, then that's a win for all of us.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, it sounds like a yay Dan moment, doesn't it?
JESSICA BARKER. I feel like Dan's Deals is only going to go from strength to strength as well. It's great publicity for you.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, there's some free advertising for you, Dan. High five.
JESSICA BARKER. Sponsor next time. Should we ask him if he's interested?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Jessica, what's your story for us this week?
JESSICA BARKER. So this is the story of 246 Nicoles, or rather 247 Nicoles.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.
JESSICA BARKER. Now for this tale, we are visiting Calgary, and actually there is a theme of Holland returning. I know you were talking about Holland last week, and we're touching on Holland again.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Big fans of the Dutch on this show.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes.
JESSICA BARKER. Me too.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes.
JESSICA BARKER. So, for this tale, we're in Calgary. We are on a night out near the University of Calgary, where a man named Carlos met a woman named Nicole. And, by Carlos's account at least, they seemed to hit it off.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Ooh la la!
JESSICA BARKER. Carlos, yeah, there seemed to be some love or friendship in the air. Carlos gave Nicole and her friend a lift home, and Nicole gave Carlos her number. So, all seems to be going well.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Is that what youngsters do these days? They give each other their numbers?
CAROLE THERIAULT. That's what I did! That's what we did when we were kids!
JESSICA BARKER. It seems that's so bloody normal!
GRAHAM CLULEY. Blatant, isn't it? So brazen. Here is my phone number. Do people really do that? I thought they only did that in the movies.
JESSICA BARKER. Well, what else? Find me on Facebook. Did you date ever, Graham?
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, not by giving anyone my telephone number. No.
JESSICA BARKER. Oh, how interesting.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, you're— we're the weird ones. We're the weird ones. You're right, you're right, totally.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I once got into a relationship by a woman pouring a jug of orange juice over my head. That was classic.
CAROLE THERIAULT. You don't need therapy or anything. Don't worry about that.
JESSICA BARKER. So lesson to any potential datees out there, no, don't exchange phone numbers, exchange orange juice over the head. That's the way. Well, it's not how it started with Carlos and Nicole. Nicole gave Carlos her number, but Carlos went to call Nicole the next day and discovered the number was incorrect.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I have to imagine.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, now that.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I've done that too.
GRAHAM CLULEY. That I can believe. Classic. That would, I mean, if I was I was in a position to ever give anyone my number. If anyone was interested in me and I thought, no, no, no, just ask me, guys, I've got it, I would just give them a random number. You would do that. So I imagine a lot of women may find themselves in the situation to think, sure, it's, it's easier to give him the wrong number and I'll never see him again.
JESSICA BARKER. The wrong number, he'll never— yeah, I'll never be confronted. I won't have to tell him I don't like him.
GRAHAM CLULEY. All right.
JESSICA BARKER. And you'd have thought that Carlos would have realized this and thought, okay, she's given me the brush off, move on. But no. Oh, Carlos, it seems, is a persistent chap. He was undeterred, and so he used some information he had. Nicole had told him that she was studying at the University of Calgary, and so Carlos sent an email to all 246 Nicoles, Nicolettes, Nickies, any combination of all.
CAROLE THERIAULT. What a nightmare! Okay, and what did he write? My head's in my hands, my head's in my hands. I have that David Brent, The Office moment.
GRAHAM CLULEY. What kind of freak is this?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Hey, hey, hold on, we don't know if he's a freak yet.
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, we do! Carole, we know he's a freak.
CAROLE THERIAULT. What if she left her medical alert bracelet behind and he was trying to find her so he could return it? You don't even know what he said yet in the email. Let's just see. Oh, he didn't say that.
JESSICA BARKER. Okay, you're an optimistic sort though, and I like that. But he said, if your name is Nicole and you're from Holland and you think Nietzsche is depressing— I hope I pronounced that correctly, I'm not sure. 'But if you think Nietzsche is depressing, then call me.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Here's my number.' Is this the kind of small talk people get up to these days?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, you know, if you've gone to university, Graham, like some of us have, you'd of course know that this is what we talk about all the time in the cafes. Okay.
JESSICA BARKER. So clearly they had a deep philosophical conversation and Carlos wanted to continue this. But he then, to be fair, he went on to say, 'If you don't fit this description, then ignore me. And if you are the Nicole and you just 'Just don't want to talk to me.' Well, that's okay as well.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I love Canadians. I am so— see, that's— if he's stalky at this stage, he's doing it in a kind of nice way, right?
JESSICA BARKER. He's being polite.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Stalkers really narrowed it down from 246 Nicoles though. Okay, you know what, I don't know, I'm gonna think, oh, it could be me, you know.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Actually, I don't think this is stalking at all at this stage. Actually, I think it's a bit— no, I really don't. I think he did a bit of a weird thing. That was a weird thing to do. But hey, if I were the Nicole, I might go, oh my God, freak. But then I read the message and I just wouldn't answer. And I wouldn't feel worried. And if I was another Nicole, I would just delete it, right? So, okay, at this stage I'm just saying that's where I'm standing. I'm saying not stalkery, bit weird.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, I think freak. I think definitely enough freak.
CAROLE THERIAULT. You takes one to know one, eh, Clue? Okay, I'm sorry, I don't know why I'm being so mean to you today, but I'm having fun.
GRAHAM CLULEY. 105 episodes, used to it.
JESSICA BARKER. So the story continues. This actually united the 246 Nicoles. Emailed amongst themselves. And some classic lines between them, such as, "Would the real Nicole please stand up?" Of course. Brilliant. And plotting, you know, how do we all reply to say we are the Nicole? Just spam his inbox? "I'm Spartacus." "No, I'm Spartacus." So then they made a Facebook group group called Nicole from Last Night, and some of them even met up for drinks.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I love it.
JESSICA BARKER. And have become firm friends.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Brilliant.
JESSICA BARKER. So you'd think this tale now has turned into female solidarity, wonderful, great fun, but that was not the end of the story.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh God, this is brilliant. I need more popcorn and everything.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Okay.
JESSICA BARKER. The Nicole then emerges, the Nicole that had found Nietzsche so depressing that she wanted to discuss it on a night out. She She had not received the email.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh!
CAROLE THERIAULT. Because it wasn't her name.
JESSICA BARKER. It was her name.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay.
JESSICA BARKER. It actually was her name, but she was on an exchange visit to Canada from Holland, and so she did not yet have a University of Calgary email address, and she had misremembered her number. It can shine. Because she wasn't used to this new number. So, but she saw this on Facebook, this viral "Nicole's from last night" group. Group, and she responded to them saying, "I'm so pleased. I didn't get the beautiful email," in her words, "but could you please connect me with Carlos?" Oh, you're joking.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, you see?
GRAHAM CLULEY. So she's a freak as well. So it's just two weird people have connected.
CAROLE THERIAULT. There's one freak here, one negative freak here. This is what I'm seeing.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And now they might breed and make more freaks.
JESSICA BARKER. Harsh words.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Very harsh. I know, I know.
JESSICA BARKER. But I mean, I do agree. When I started reading this, I thought, this is weird, this is stalker territory. And this is what it brings up, I think. Many security lessons that we can take from this, but one being, when does it become stalking versus just romantically pursuing someone in this age where there is so much publicly available information on people. If you have someone's name, where they're studying, where they're working, pretty easy to track people down now, or most people. So it raises lots of questions and also potentially provides the plot of the next rom-com to emerge from Hollywood.
CAROLE THERIAULT. See, the problem though then is like, say for example, I was out with a pal and they left something behind that was important and I really need to get back to them, like medication, and then I send this email. And if there were some kind of weird legislation that said you can never do this.
JESSICA BARKER. And, you know, people make great friendships and connections and they're able to be successful in their job lines.
CAROLE THERIAULT. But this isn't stalkery, right? Everything turned out great on all fronts, really, right?
JESSICA BARKER. Everything turned out well.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I don't think it's stalkery at all.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You don't? No. It's a little pushy.
JESSICA BARKER. It's pushing at the boundary.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes, I think I agree.
CAROLE THERIAULT. He was keen.
JESSICA BARKER. Jessica Barker. Graham Cluley. Keen, true.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah.
JESSICA BARKER. And we weren't there on that night out. It seems they got on very well and they wanted to continue their philosophical debate. So Nicole—
CAROLE THERIAULT. Nicole's nattering about Nietzsche.
JESSICA BARKER. Yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. With Übermensch Carlos, the Superman.
JESSICA BARKER. But I want to know how he got the 246 names.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, that's, that's the security bit, isn't it? It's like, how, why was it so easy to access that information? How else could that information have been abused if they'd fallen into the hands of someone with more criminal intent rather than someone who was just a bit weird?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Maybe it's all open. Maybe you can, you know, maybe there's a directory at the University of Calgary that says, here are, you know, if you need to get in touch with anyone on our campus at their official account, here's how to do it.
JESSICA BARKER. Maybe.
GRAHAM CLULEY. But maybe it shouldn't be, Carole, because I mean, the hoax, as far as I know, wasn't at the university. It's not like he had a— I mean, it could be used by spammers, for instance, couldn't it?
JESSICA BARKER. Yeah.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh yeah.
JESSICA BARKER. Phishing.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Live in fear.
JESSICA BARKER. Live in fear.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Just saying it was a bit Daily Mail of you, Graham, to jump to the whole stalker thing. Just a bit Piers Morgan of you. Just wanna— just saying.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, there's no greater offense. I love that I've offended you now, right before I go into my story. Go on then, Carole, let's hear what you've got. Come on.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, okay, now I feel a bit silly because I have a problem, a dilemma, right?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, do you?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, and I, I want to know if I should feel bad about something, and I was maybe thinking you guys could give me a hand.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Now you want a hand, okay.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So, okay, first, I am predisposed to vouch for the underdog, just the way I'm built, right? And two, I think I'm having this dilemma because what I think and what I feel are not aligned. Sometimes you think something and you feel something and they're not always the same, right?
JESSICA BARKER. Intriguing.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, so here's the problem. This is all about Facebook. I know you guys were hoping to get some really juicy personal details.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yes. I was hoping that you were out on a date with some guy called Orlando. Who wanted to speak to you about Virginia Woolf. And yeah, okay, come on then, let's hear what have you got? What have you got? Come on.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, so lately, Facebook has been getting kicked really hard in the proverbial nuts. Since the Cambridge Analytica scandal last spring, Facebook keeps falling on its pimply face as it tries to dodge the media negative spotlight. I mean, just think about these headlines. I just did a little search. This is just in the last few days, maybe a week. Facebook exodus. Nearly half of young users have deleted the app from their phone in the last year. You know, 8 parliaments are now demanding Zuckerberg answers for Facebook scandals. A new study finds that cutting out your social media to 30 minutes a day reduces risks of depression and loneliness. Why does our company suck at having a moral compass? You've got ex-CSOs saying basically Facebook could have responded more quickly to the Russian interference. And then the big juicy piece, The New York Times.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Oh, yes.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, yeah. So that while Zuckerberg's out there whimpering apologies between sips of water, you've got the CEO, Sheryl Sandberg, doing her best to downplay the crisis and even hires a firm to smear critics. And some are accusing it of fueling antisemitism. So it's all very gross. And just think of poor Nick Clegg, right? Ex-deputy prime minister of the UK, now Facebook's new global head of policy and communications. Now, he's been asked by his new employers to conduct a review of Facebook's use of lobbying firms. Hmm, that's going to be pretty non-controversial, right? I think you've done nothing wrong, Facebook, and thank you very much for my paycheck. But basically, you have many, many stories of unhappy Facebook users, unhappy Facebook workers, shady Facebook practices, shadier lobbying tactics, and they've connected more than 2.2 billion people. We all say they've, you know, reshaped political campaigns for the worse. Their advertising business, some might say, stinks. And along the way, they've amassed the largest ever repository of personal data. So my dilemma, right?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Sarah, I'm sorry, that was a big preamble.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I've spent years and years attacking Facebook and its shitty security, and finally the mass media are doing my job for me. Should I be thrilled to watch Facebook fall over?
JESSICA BARKER. Or—
CAROLE THERIAULT. and I'm not saying I feel sorry for them— but I wonder whether we're being fair and just targeting our aim so narrowly on Facebook. I mean, are they the sacrificial lamb? What about Twitter, Reddit, Google? Are they better?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Certainly, I don't think Facebook is the only one at fault. But Facebook has a particularly tight grip on people, doesn't it? I think if you're to speak about things like addiction and the impact it might have on your personality and your happiness, then from my viewpoint at least, when I see friends and family and things, it seems to be Facebook and the timeline which they're particularly addicted to. And I know there's other things out— Instagram obviously is part of Facebook and that's been growing massively, and there are other sites as well, but If Facebook is feeling uncomfortable because of all this attention, then I think, well, about time. There are problems there which should have been fixed long ago.
JESSICA BARKER. I think that's it. And I think, you know, you said, should you be thrilled to watch them fail and be so criticized? And I think we can be pleased they are maybe being held to account for some of these practices, but it's a shame they've engaged with them. Like you say, they have actually connected people. Some people find it fantastic for staying in touch, and meeting people and having friends. And it's a shame that all of that can't just be used for good and that there is so much insidiousness with it, that they do collect so much data, that it's been used for political reasons, that it's used for so much advertising, which of course, you know, it's free. So, if you're not paying for something, then you are the product. But, so, I think the whole thing is a bit icky.
CAROLE THERIAULT. You're right. I agree. But I do think the media is at risk of seeming a little witch-hunty here.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, let's not Don't forget that the media has a vested interest in this as well, because the media is being destroyed and damaged by the fact that so many people now will get their news from Facebook.
CAROLE THERIAULT. That's a good point. I didn't— that makes sense, yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. In some cases, the web traffic even isn't going to those media news sites, and it's staying on Facebook.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, all they have to do is write about Trump, right? And they can fix that.
GRAHAM CLULEY. But, you know, so I mean, the media is having a very tough time with the internet anyway, and Facebook is a large part of the internet.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Internet.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I mean, I'm not on Facebook anymore, and I can't imagine what would lure me back other than maybe the thought of joining a Friedrich Nietzsche dating group on the site.
CAROLE THERIAULT. You're not invited. Your name's not Nicole.
GRAHAM CLULEY. So it's a very tough entry, isn't it? That's what he should have done. He should have just created a— sorry to go back to the previous story— he should have just created a Facebook group and only invited people called Nicole.
JESSICA BARKER. Maybe he's not on Facebook.
GRAHAM CLULEY. He could have done that with a Facebook ad, couldn't he? He just spent 50 quid and maybe he'd been able to locate her with the amount of information they But yeah, I mean, it's not fun to pick on anyone, but you know what? I think Facebook can handle it. It's not as though they're going to go out of business.
CAROLE THERIAULT. And maybe this mounting pressure is necessary to force them to change, right?
JESSICA BARKER. And I think the more they're under pressure, the more other social networking, social media sites are going to look and say, well, actually, we don't want it to be us next.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, so basically Facebook is being treated by its competitors and the media as the kind of sacrificial lamb. And I just hope that's enough, because really, what we probably need is some legislators, policymakers, think tanks, active groups to try and think about how we fix this.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I don't know. I mean, I'm not a huge fan of loads and loads of legislation. I think sometimes the people in power, I don't think they always have a good handle on how technology is going. And I think you can destroy some innovation.
CAROLE THERIAULT. That's a really, really good point. And technology firms should be involved in it.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You just imagine how long it takes to get an agreement and all the rest of it. We're working on it.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Also, don't even try. Don't even try.
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, no, no. What I actually believe will make a difference to Facebook is not what governments and legislators say. I think that the way to get them to change is through their pocket, is through the money they make, it's through advertisers. So if advertisers don't like what Facebook is doing, what it's doing to people who use the site, or how it's been abused by unpleasant groups, for instance, if we want to put it that way, then advertisers should stop using Facebook.
CAROLE THERIAULT. And they are, they are, right? Their share price is plummeting for many reasons. They're even calling for Zuckerberg Zuckerberg's head, right?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah. And from what I've heard, a lot of advertisers are actually finding that social media advertising simply does not work very well. And some of the numbers regarding how viewed their ads were, for instance, on Facebook are massively inflated and doesn't really reflect true engagement.
CAROLE THERIAULT. On the Pivot podcast, Kara Swisher— sorry, I said her name wrong. Kara Swisher. I can't say her name. Swisher. Kara Swisher. What did you say?
GRAHAM CLULEY. The host.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So on the Pivot podcast, they said of Mark Zuckerberg, he's the CEO, he has 60%, he's an adult, and they're treating him like this sort of adult boy king who doesn't know what's going on. It's ridiculous. He knows exactly what's going on. And I think that's helped me, you know, I think, I think I'm on that side. So he's not a kid. He's fucked up.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And it's not just him, you know, there's a board of people at Facebook, some of whom are somewhat controversial and have vested interests and fingers in different pies. And, you know, they are there to advise him as well and make policy. And, you know, it's not solely on Mark Zuckerberg's shoulders, however much influence indeed he may have.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, I agree.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Not a fan. Not a fan.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I got a message for him. I've got a message for him. Mark, Welcome to Dumpsville, population you.
GRAHAM CLULEY. We're trying to increase our number of listeners at the moment.
CAROLE THERIAULT. That's not the way to endear anybody.
GRAHAM CLULEY. He's never been negative about our show despite our content. And you join us at our favourite part of the show, the part of the show that we like to call Pick of the Week.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Pick of the Week. Jessica, you have to say it too.
JESSICA BARKER. Pick of the Week.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Pick of the Week is the part of the show where everyone chooses something they like. It could be a funny story, a book that they've read, a TV show, a movie, a record, a podcast, a website, or an app. Whatever they like. It doesn't have to be security-related necessarily.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Better not be.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, my Pick of the Week is not security-related.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Excellent.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It comes from the era before cybersecurity concerns and phishing. And just once again, just like last week, I'm going to go back in time. I'm actually going to go back 50 years this time, because November 2018 is of course the 50th anniversary.
CAROLE THERIAULT. They don't make cool things anymore.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, you know what, Crow? Maybe they don't.
JESSICA BARKER. We've been to the future with Graham. Now we're going to the past. This is impressive time travelling.
CAROLE THERIAULT. He doesn't know what he wants. He doesn't know what he wants. I— Have you tried meditating?
GRAHAM CLULEY. Am— Oh, there's a link, Crow, with meditation. Oh. I am going back in the past to 1968 when the Beatles brought out their their famous White Album, which they composed while they were on a meditation retreat in Rishikesh. Yeah, in India with the Maharishi. And, uh, they wrote, I don't know, 30-odd songs on that album. That album, the only Beatles double album, has been remixed and re-released this month, and it's joined as well by the infamous Isha demos. So what happened was when they came back from India, three of the Beatles, the ones who matter, John, Paul, and George, uh, Ringo's all right, but you know, he wasn't a songwriter. They went round to George's bungalow and they recorded on acoustic guitars all the songs which they'd been writing in India.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I love how you're saying it like you were there.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And well, you can be there because Ringo passed me a doobie. As those tapes have been dug out and have now been released, so you can hear early versions of all of these fantastic songs. So as well as the original album being remixed, you've got that. You've also got 50 other rehearsal takes and sessions from this fantastic album. Many of— much of this has never been previously released, or it's only been available on bootleg. And they've remixed the stereo, so you haven't just got the vocals in one ear. It's fantastic. The drums and the bass are more to the foreground, possibly because those are the only two Beatles that are still alive, and so they were lobbying to have more drums and bass. But it is Fantastic. It sounds like a brand new record. It's 50 years, nothing has changed. This is just as relevant today. I would recommend everyone go and check out—
CAROLE THERIAULT. all this for the very low, low price of—
GRAHAM CLULEY. not that low if you get the super deluxe edition. Well, if you get the super duper duper deluxe edition, it's going to cost you over £100. I have been listening, uh, on Spotify. I think I've been listening to it, so I'm hoping someone's going to get this to me for Christmas because then I get the book.
CAROLE THERIAULT. You're having a laugh.
GRAHAM CLULEY. I get— you get the book, you get all the CDs, you can get it on vinyl.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Anyway, yeah, you know what, if you were nicer, this— maybe I would.
GRAHAM CLULEY. The Beatles are the most underrated group.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh yeah, no one's heard of them. You dated a girl once who hadn't heard from them, and you stopped dating her when you found out she didn't know about the Beatles.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Can you blame me? Can you blame me?
CAROLE THERIAULT. So pouring orange juice over your head is fine, but yeah, if you don't know the Beatles—
JESSICA BARKER. not a Beatles fan, kick her to the curb. Swipe left or right, or I don't know which one. I don't know which way. I don't know the Tinder, but—
GRAHAM CLULEY. The Beatles, White Album, my pick of the week. A pretty darn good one as well. Thank you very much and good night.
JESSICA BARKER. Okay, bye.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Just you and me now, Jess. See you, Graham.
JESSICA BARKER. Finally.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Bye now. Jessica, what's your pick of the week?
JESSICA BARKER. Well, so my pick of the week is— there is a slight security angle, so I do apologize, Carole, but I will explain. It's wider than security. So I travel a lot for work and constantly find I am exhausting the in-flight entertainment options. Watched, you know, there's only so many Veeps someone can watch on repeat. So recently I'm flying back from Canada, the middle of the night, I can't sleep. I felt like I'd watched everything decent on offer.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You didn't think of listening to a security podcast or something?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Perhaps on your phone?
JESSICA BARKER. Yeah, I downloaded and listened listened to all of the ones available at the time. It was a very, very, very long flight from Canada. We just looped around the world.
CAROLE THERIAULT. 100 episodes couldn't cut it, Graham.
JESSICA BARKER. Not quite long enough. So, I was moving on for something else to do. And I stumbled across a film called American Animals. And I thought, well, that's an intriguing name. And it said something about won awards. Of, you know, independent movie awards, and okay, I'll give it a go, and it was an amazing film. I was so rewarded for my risk-taking on this name alone. It is a film that merges documentary and drama in a way that is very unusual but really works, and it tells the real story of a group of young men, university students, who plan one of the most ambitious and audacious art heists in history. Real story. And so we see it dramatized. We also hear from the men involved, their parents, other people.
CAROLE THERIAULT. So it's like a documentary here.
JESSICA BARKER. So it's like a mix of drama and documentary, and it works so well. And it is fascinating. I was hooked. It was making me laugh. It made me cry on the plane. It made— it was, you know, teeth clenching.
CAROLE THERIAULT. It's because you were leaving Canada. That's why you were crying. I understand.
JESSICA BARKER. That's true, that's true. But it was amazing, and for once, what I loved about this film, it was a heist movie that doesn't glamorize the heist. So, it was, I think, an amazing message and told really well. And actually, I bring it back to security, but it had some things in it that I just think people working in security would love. There was some great examples of social engineering in there, obviously the importance of physical security. But for me, what stood out was the way it explores the mindset of people who are smart and they are bored, they are ambitious but without a purpose, and these, these guys that kind of wanted to make their mark on the world and subvert the status quo. So, very interesting to think about in terms of the profile of some people engaging in cybercrime. Time.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Okay, I'm hooked. I'm definitely gonna watch this. This sounds right up my street.
JESSICA BARKER. Also great soundtrack, so highly recommended. My pick of the week.
GRAHAM CLULEY. If I hadn't become a computer security expert or whatever, I, I'd always fancied becoming an international art thief. And that's for real. I always thought if I could imagine myself on this—
CAROLE THERIAULT. Do you feel you know a lot about art, Graham?
GRAHAM CLULEY. I wouldn't have to, Carole. I—
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, you just go, there's some paint, that's worth something.
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, I, I would, I would be hireable. I be like the Pink Panther.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, right.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Into galleries. This is what I imagined. I always wanted to do that.
CAROLE THERIAULT. And, uh, was it Thom Cruise slammed down on, on cords being suspended from the ceiling?
GRAHAM CLULEY. A lot of people have made the comparison, and I don't mean in terms of our height. There, there is a similarity. Anyway, no, it sounds good.
JESSICA BARKER. It's a film for you.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah, American Animals. I will go and check it out. Thank you very much.
JESSICA BARKER. Pleasure.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Pro, what have you got?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, I'm choosing something following your lead, Graham, that's been around for a while, but that I didn't know anything about until it's just started blowing up again this week. So I'm interested in if you guys know about this. So my pick of the week is that a tip, it's an iPhone tip, that on your iPhone keyboard, you have a kind of mouse. So by simply pressing down the any key while you scroll, what's it called? Your cursor goes into mouse mode. And this works in native and non-native apps.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Yeah.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Oh, what? Yeah.
GRAHAM CLULEY. It becomes like a trackpad.
CAROLE THERIAULT. You knew?
JESSICA BARKER. You knew?
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, no, no. This popped up on my Twitter because it's been everywhere this week.
JESSICA BARKER. Mine too.
CAROLE THERIAULT. I was worried that, you know, by the time this show goes out Thursday, everyone's gonna be like, yeah, God, we're so bored about it. Yes, we know.
GRAHAM CLULEY. No, it's fantastic. If no one's heard of it, this is They have to try it out because it is life-changing. Because normally when you're trying to move your cursor up and, you know, to correct a typo or something, what you've been writing, your big fat finger, Carole, your big fat finger, specifically your big fat finger, gets in the way, doesn't it? So you can't see quite. But with this thing, this trick, which we'll link to, I imagine, in the show notes.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yes. Yes.
GRAHAM CLULEY. If anyone needs a proper explanation, it allows you to sort of skate around in the text so much more easily, like on a trackpad.
CAROLE THERIAULT. And it's been around for 3 years. This keyboard feature was discovered recently because a Twitter user called Chrissy Bear Davis shared her discovery on Twitter. And she has like a few thousand followers and has her own online business, but she's getting so much media attention and already she's got tweets saying, "I'm on the news," you know? But anyway, it seems to have captured everybody, but it is so great. So I am very thankful to Chrissy Bear Davis. In fact, she is my pick of the week. For putting out that tweet that has made my life much more enjoyable. Your digital life, certainly.
JESSICA BARKER. It makes me wonder what other tricks and tips are out there that we just don't know about, that they're just not telling us. Come on, Chrissy.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah, Chrissy, this could be your new career.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Because I mean, Apple, you know, they cause a stink by getting rid of Touch ID or headphone jack and things like that. But if they made more of a splash about some of these features which have already existed for a while that people aren't aware of, they bubbled them up, people would probably give them a lot more love, wouldn't they?
JESSICA BARKER. Yeah. Do they not realise that we don't know? Do they— does this take them by surprise when 3 years later we're all like, oh, you can do that?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Yeah. And they're like, no, duh.
JESSICA BARKER. Oh, didn't we tell you?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Well, there you go. My pick of the week. I think we've had 3 excellent picks of the week this week. Thank you very much, everybody.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Well, on that enormous bombshell of an iPhone call Brick, we've just about wrapped up the show for this week. Jessica, I'm sure people would love to follow you on the socials. What's the best way in which they can do that?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Don't do it in a stalkery way.
JESSICA BARKER. Yes, my name is not Nicole. You can find me on Twitter @DrJessicaBarker.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Smashing. And you can find us on Twitter @SmashingSecurity. No G, Twitter wouldn't allow us to have a G. And it's a good idea because we tweet now and again with voucher codes so that you can get special offers on our online store where you can grab mugs and t-shirts and hoodies and stickers.
CAROLE THERIAULT. Super fashion for Christmas.
GRAHAM CLULEY. SmashingSecurity.com/store.
CAROLE THERIAULT. If you like us, please rate us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts because it really, really helps us and makes us feel good, but it also helps other people find the show, which is very cool.
GRAHAM CLULEY. But most of all, it just makes us feel loved and wanted. That's really, really what we want. That's what we do this show fundamentally, isn't it?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Just to get a wee wee wee bit of—
GRAHAM CLULEY. You don't need—
CAROLE THERIAULT. You're the needy one.
GRAHAM CLULEY. You don't need any love.
CAROLE THERIAULT. No, I just enjoy it. I don't need it. Okay.
JESSICA BARKER. Big difference.
GRAHAM CLULEY. Until next time. Cheerio. Bye bye.
JESSICA BARKER. Bye.
GRAHAM CLULEY. And welcome back. And you join us on our favourite tart— favourite tart?
CAROLE THERIAULT. Stop dreaming.
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